Talk:AIDS

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Abstinence only programs a failure?

There happens to be a quote in this article saying that abstinence only programs have failed. Even though this tidbit includes proper citation, I think that it is A. out of place, and B. untrue. I happen to have personal contact with a woman who teaches AIDS prevention in Africa. Their abstinence program has been highly successful, more so than passing out condoms. Why is this? Most people, especially teens or decultured people in Nigeria, do not know how to properly store and use a condom. I can elaborate, but I believe it is unnecessary, as this information is out of context anyways. I am going to remove this, please add this in a separate article where it applies. Thank you. --Wick3dd 19:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

But you do see the difference between promoting abstinence, and abstinence-only programs? I'm sure in Nigeria the programs, while promoting abstinence, also acknowledge the existence of condoms and the fact that they effectively lower the risk of HIV transmission. Abstinence-only programs, on the other hand, don't cover barrier methods or anything beyond abstinence. Unless I'm missing something, these don't seem comparable. MastCell Talk 21:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

In Africa they teach abstinence outside of marriage. They leave out condoms. It is such an epidemic over there, it requires a harsher program than it would here. Most Africans wouldn't be properly storing condoms, and condoms are not guaranteed to block HIV everytime. The safest option if for them to stay loyal to one person. Thanks for the reply. --Wick3dd 02:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really comfortable with your generalization about what "most Africans" would do. Of course condoms are not 100% effective, and abstinence (if practiced) is. Of course, simply telling people to be abstinent is not really an effective way to control an epidemic. That said, I think your clarification (adding "in the United States" to the studies of abstinence-only education) is a reasonable one. MastCell Talk 03:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem we need to address concerning Africa is practice of using anal sex as a form of birth control when condoms are not available. Education that anal sex is many times more likley to transmit HIV might promote abstinence when no condom is available. Information is power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 20:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Abstinence outside of marriage hasn't been strictly adhered to by most human community in most of recorded time. There have been bastard children through all societies and all cultures. So what exactly makes you think it'll work in this day and age? Being faithful to 1 person does nto garentee they will be faithful to you. 206.75.33.118 09:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


Whatever we can't believe anything you say you can't even spell. Abstinence is the best way that we have right now, face it.

~This is not the right place to be debating whether teaching abstinence is the best idea. 99.233.20.151 (talk) 15:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't asking anyone to believe anything, I was merely asking a question because I wasn unclear about the circumstances in which AIDS can be spread. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.251.16 (talk) 01:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Transmission and Prevention

This may have come up in past discussions, but can someone tell me why the main section on the transmission of HIV is in the AIDS article instead of in the HIV article? You cannot transmit AIDS. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


I noticed the following sentence under the Transmission and Prevention section, Sexual Contact subsection: The risk of HIV transmission from exposure to saliva is considerably smaller than the risk from exposure to semen; contrary to popular belief, one would have to swallow liters of saliva from a carrier to run a significant risk of becoming infected.[78]

I looked up the article in citation #78, and it doesn't support this claim at all. In fact, to my reading, it doesn't even mention the word "saliva" once. I think that whoever wrote this sentence should either find the correct citation, or the Wiki editors should remove it, because I've never found any source that does support this claim. The CDC states that there are very low levels of HIV present in saliva, but does not list contact with saliva or kissing as possible methods of transmitting HIV.

146.203.126.65 (talk) 22:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The following line is not supported by the reference: "Randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision lowers the risk of HIV infection among heterosexual men by up to 60%". The infection risk was not lowered 60% as suggested, but was 60% lower than the control group (uncircumcised). The actual reduction in absolute risk was less than 2%. This needs to be clarified. intactguy (talk) 15:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I looked up the reference, and I can't agree with your assessment of "not supported." "Up to 60%" might not be the preferred way of describing the results in a medical journal, but it is a simple and I think valid way of expressing it for a general audience. In fact, the source states that the protective effect is even greater when the subjects are sorted by whether or not they were actually circumcised (as opposed to being simply assigned to the circumcision group).
What are you using as a source for your absolute risk figures? Are you referring to the Kenyan observational study mentioned in the source, where circumcision is associated with a per-act infection risk reduction from 1.28% to 0.51%? If so, the risk reduction is almost exactly 60%.
FYI, the source also addresses the objections you raised on the circumcision page, disputing the relevance of circumcision to developed countries. The source describes a study of over 3,000 men in the US that found a doubled risk of HIV transmission in men who were not circumcised. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 16:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
So were the men circumcised 60% less likely to be infected or 60% less likely than the control group. In example, the Orange Farm Trial(had the highest protective effect it showed the 60% drop, 53% in Uganda, 48% in Kenya), of the 3,274 men 49 (1.4%) uncircumcised men, and 20 (0.6%) circumcised men were infected when the trial was stopped (early). I tossed the less than 2% to avoid looking everything up and doing the math, but since I did, they were 0.8% less likely to have been infected overall, but 60% less likely to be infected than the control group. The sentence implies that if circumcised your overall risk of infection is cut by 60%. Is my math bad?
Although its irrelevant to the 60%, could you clarify which source you are talking about, here or on the circ page? intactguy 21:01 UTC June 19 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intactguy (talk • contribs) 21:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Also I am not arguing the validity of the 60%, I just see it as sensationalism more meant for headlines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intactguy (talk • contribs) 23:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Nothing wrong with your math...just some common misconceptions about statistics. When the sales tax is increased from, let's say, five percent to six percent, state officials try to downplay the increase, referring to it as merely a 1% increase. The rate hike is actually 20% (a 1% increase would result in a 5.05% sales tax rate). Six minus five is one, but one is 20% of five. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 17:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


Hi, Um~ this is weird to ask but...if two people who don't have HIV of any kind and do not have AIDS engage in anal sex, is it possible to get HIV/AIDS? And if so how possible? If the answer is 'don't ask it here' can you lead me to a place that has the answer? The AIDS WiKi article isn't clear on that (for me anyway). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.251.16 (talk) 00:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, probably the WP:RD is the place to ask, but as long as you're here: no, anal sex doesn't magically generate the AIDS virus, and no, you can't be infected by having sex with someone who isn't infected. In the real world, of course, being sure that someone isn't infected is more complicated than it is in the hypothetical world. - Nunh-huh 00:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

beginning of AIDS

The first documented AIDS case was where a male African flight attendant acquired AIDS from intercourse with a monkey and then further transmitted it to humans via active sexual activity aloing his long flying routes. So this patriarch of AIDS, who was an African, began the AIDS epidemic that has not only devastated Africa but the rest of the earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.192.6.132 (talk) 21:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there any reliable source indicating that the transmission to humans occurred through bestiality? Seriously. Is it not as likely to occur through consumption of the infected meat? If you have no reliable sources, I'll assume that you went of on a racist rant.Gkmx (talk) 14:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/conditions/06/13/monkeys.aid/ Also see http://www.avert.org/origins.htm Take a wild guess as to how it got transferred to humans; it wasn't from eating the monkeys, it was transferred the same way it is today- through sexual intercourse, or bestiality. The only reason it's not mentioned in the article is because gays don't want the rest of the world to know that they're the ones who started the epidemic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.71.245.166 (talk) 00:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

How is this relevant to gays? It could have been a female monkey. You can't simply blame all sexual acts you find repulsive on one group. I'm sure most homosexuals are as disgusted by beastiality as you are. --Lophoole (talk) 16:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

You may want to reread the sources you provided:
"The virus was passed onto chimpanzees when they ate infected monkey meat, believe the scientists from universities in France, America and the UK." (CNN, 2003) Fifth paragraph down.
"The most commonly accepted theory is that of the 'hunter'. In this scenario, SIVcpz was transferred to humans as a result of chimps being killed and eaten or their blood getting into cuts or wounds on the hunter." (Avert.org, 2008) from "The hunter theory" section.-Optigan13 (talk) 07:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

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AIDS is not caused by HIV

Clearly this Wikipedia article is horribly wrong. See: http://www.orgonelab.org/hiv_aids.htm

68.193.77.86 (talk) 01:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Not a reliable source. It also gives undue weight to fringe theories that are not accepted by medical science. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 01:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

people with aids need to seek medical attention immediatley —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.96.242 (talk) 20:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

"The claim that the virus HIV causes AIDS is an hypothesis which is not supported by facts or evidence, and which has demonstrated no usefulness for predicting or explaining the epidemiology of AIDS." That just about sums up the reliability of that source. I might just contact the creator of that article with a very large list of facts and evidence. Regards, CycloneNimrodTalk? 17:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, if it's actually a lab working on orgones, as the URL implies, I'm sure they'll be very receptive to scientifically based arguments and evidence... MastCell Talk 18:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Good point. Well, who am I to argue with a 'life force' anyway. Regards, CycloneNimrodTalk? 18:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

← If more sources show up, use it. But remember that was published in 1993. We may have found different information since then. Cavenba (talk • contribs) 10:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Great, that orgone reference really ridiculed the entire issue. However, one must be able to see, that the following is to be taken serious.

The first sentence postulates that AIDS is caused by HIV, but the article which it refers to in footnote [1] clearly avoids the word "caused" and uses "correlate" instead.
Also, the "Related Articles" box on that site contains an article article with the title "Human immunodeficiency virus and acquired immunodeficiency syndrome: correlation but not causation.", discussing how AIDS and HIV correlate.
I know the piece is from '89, but I can find no scientific article, which has proven anything more than correlation.
Wouldn't it be adequate to change the wording from "HIV causes AIDS" to "HIV correlates with AIDS" in this article as well? --ANDSENS (talk) 15:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
No, it wouldn't. AIDS denialists have their own article on Wikipedia, so you can take your pseudoscientific BS over there. Go and read How HIV Causes AIDS or HIV Causes AIDS--Bob (talk) 15:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps we need a little clock at the top of the talkpage, like they have at industrial sites: "3 days without an AIDS denialist arguing that the lead is 'biased'". I suspect we would not get beyond a week or so, as these arguments tend to cycle about that often. For the record, HIV causes AIDS, and any reference work which aspires to any sort of respectability or accuracy will not minimize or downplay that fact. MastCell Talk 17:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Can we also have a betting pool? This could be entertaining. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 00:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Reorder sentences in intro suggestion

I think this paragraph buries the lead, which is the pandemic. I think this paragraph should start with "AIDS is now a pandemic." with the rest of the paragraph which now precedes that put at the end. A link to the epidemiology section may be appropriate too. This is how it is now: Most researchers believe that HIV originated in sub-Saharan Africa during the twentieth century.[4] The disease was first identified by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1981 and its cause identified by American and French scientists in the late 1980s.[5] AIDS is now a pandemic.[citation needed] In 2007, an estimated 33.2 million people lived with the disease worldwide, and it killed an estimated 2.1 million people, including 330,000 children.[6] Over three-quarters of these deaths occurred in sub-Saharan Africa,[6] retarding economic growth and destroying human capital.[7] Jensiverson (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Mbeki

I wonder if the following:

"President Thabo Mbeki's embrace of AIDS denialism"

should be reworded. I looked at the Mbeki article, and though he seems to have some sort of connection with denialists, it seemed vague, and to suggest he "embraces" it is perhaps an overstatement, or at least doesn't give the proper context. 24.68.37.204 (talk) 02:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there another term you would use to describe Mbeki's close association with AIDS Denialists, and appointment of a denialist Health Minister? One thing that jumps out at me looking at the Thabo Mbeki page is the lack of sources to back up assertions about his limited relationship with AIDS denialism, while this page has three to do so. His health minister's page Manto Tshabalala-Msimang addresses her views with more detail and sources. An op-ed piece in the New York Times states it as "The theory, which we call AIDS denialism, has gained such currency with President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa that his administration is reluctant to expand access to antiretroviral drugs."[2] This is also covered in Greg Behrman's book The Invisible People (Ch. 10)[3], which describes Mbeki as embracing denialism, including denialists on health panels, and consulting with two denialists who assert that poverty causes AIDS[4]. Embrace might sound a bit harsh looking at Mbeki's page, but I think that is because it is trying to downplay his connection with denialism. -Optigan13 (talk) 05:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If you question accepted science on the HIV virus and argue that AIDS is the direct result of "poverty, chronic disease and malnutrition", whilst entertaining a health minister who advocates garlic and beetroot over antiretroviral drugs; then you haven't just embraced AIDS-denialism - you got into bed with it and had unprotected intercourse with it. His entire presidency has been so wracked with AIDS-denialism that, as he approaches the end of his term in office, it has become the most noteworthy feature of his presinecy and most likely what he will be remembered for. Finn (talk) 11:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

AIDS in the Swimming Pool

neuropsychiatry

Not sure how long this segment is supposed to be. Added a bit on AIDS related mania, and tried to segregate material into 2 paras, one superinfections, the other primary sequelae. Not sure about title of section either. So left it as neurological and psychiatric involvement as I thought neuropsychiatric, though shorter was maybe not quite so encompassing. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

So what's about strategies like infect and resist, which concern on medical surfaces or doctors, who help infected by infecting others ?! Contact and confidence out_ source. Not only a western german problem, I think. It#s sickodullness in the medicine field. Lying and pretending to be healthy and harassing nurses. Which border can clear this boarders up?!--84.63.112.88 (talk) 16:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC) Selfline no you in; You no me in!

Duffy Antigen Receptor for Chemokines

Not to be too "current"-oriented, but this information may be useful to add to either this article or HIV or both. This will ultimately be published as "Duffy Antigen Receptor for Chemokines (DARC) Mediates Trans-infection of HIV-1 from Red Blood Cells to Target cells and Affects HIV-AIDS Susceptibility", Cell Host & Microbe. - Nunh-huh 19:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I was just reading a book about parasites, and it mentions this antigen. I haven't read anything about it for maybe 20 years, and now, twice in a day. Hmmmm. By the way, maybe we can find the reference on pub-med. That way we can reference the original article. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 19:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
PubMed (PMID: 18621010 [PubMed - in process]) -Optigan13 (talk) 19:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
As Optigan notes, it's still not published. All we have so far is press reports. Amusingly, some of the science blogs quote Wikipedia's article on the Duffy antigen system in their commentary :) This is the New York TImes article. - Nunh-huh 22:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
They must not do much fact checking. Using Wikipedia as a source? Not unless you review everything citation. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 18:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Just noticed that someone is working on this on wikinews wikinews:African AIDS prevalence may be physiological. -Optigan13 (talk) 05:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

He et al.: Duffy Antigen Receptor for Chemokines mediates trans-infection of HIV-1 from red blood cells to target cells and affects HIV-AIDS susceptibility. Cell Host & Microbe 4, 52–62, July 17, 2008. DOI 10.1016/j.chom.2008.06.002

Also referred to in Gene that protects against malaria may increase HIV risk in Africans Aidsmap, July 21, 2008. Finn (talk) 11:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Cause of AIDS discovered

The sentence about HIV being determined to be the cause of AIDS should be changed from "late 1980s." to either "mid 1980s" or "1984." The footnoted article documenting this information actually says it was 1984. "Late 1980s" is therefore inaccurate and does not even reflect the source material cited. --Peirce's Signs (talk) 16:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Corrected to "early 1980s" since the work culminating in the 1984 publications was done over several years. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 20:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Transmission in women

The transmission section only refers to vaginal sex for women. This suggests by omission that women are not getting HIV from receptive anal sex. If that is the case, then a source/ reference is needed demonstating that vaginal sex is the true source of transmission (even though another section clearly states that anal is more risky).

The first sentence of the section is: "Sexual transmission occurs with the contact between sexual secretions of one person with the rectal, genital or oral mucous membranes of another." This statement is both accurate and gender-neutral. I can't find anything in the section stating or implying that women are not at risk from anal sex, so I don't see the need for changes in this regard. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 22:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The sentence in question states: "Women are more susceptible to HIV transmission do to (1) hormonal changes, (2) vaginal microbial ecology and physiology, and (3) a higher prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases."

Omitted were factors such as:(4) cultures that use anal sex as birth control putting women at greater risk than men(5) cultural trends such as using anal sex to preserve virginity by young women and (6)trends in pornographic media and its effect on culture- these also have had an impact on HIV transmission in women worldwide.

You are certainly welcome to insert additional factors supported by reliable sources. Also, please remember to sign your comments with four tildes. Thanks, Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 18:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it Groundhog Day again already? MastCell Talk 18:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I dunno...is that the one where Bill Murray discovers the secret bias that "continues to drive this article"? Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 19:07, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

You fellas really shouldn't take it so personally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 18:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Why did Russia marked at 2% AIDS rate on your map? According to official site of Ministry of Health Care and Social Development of the Russian Federation there is only 417 715 persons registered with HIV in whole Russia, which is about 0.3% of Russia population (May 2008 data). Here is the speech of Tatyana Golikova, the Minister of Health Care from official site (in Russian): http://www.minzdravsoc.ru/events/aids-conf/4 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Innab (talk • contribs) 23:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The rate for Russia is for HIV prevalence, not AIDS, and it is given as 1-2%, based on the map. The source is a UN 2008 report, as indicated in the image documentation. The number of persons registered as having HIV will not equal the total number of HIV positive people unless Russia requires regular testing of all citizens and all positive tests are registered. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 15:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

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