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Archive 1 Jul. 2003 - Apr. 2008

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Contents 1 Merge proposal 2 Time line 3 Merge or reorganization proposed 4 No change 5 Morphology 6 USGS's definition 7 Terminology section -- cleanup

Merge proposal

Initial proposals:

I Nothing changes (Asteroid is an article, Minor planet is a different article)

II Asteroid becomes main article, Minor planet is a redirect to it

III Minor planet becomes main article, Asteroid is a redirect to it

IV Asteroid is a disambiguation page, Minor planet remains an article and absorbs most of the material from current Asteroid article

V Asteroid is a disambiguation page, Minor planet remains an article and current Asteroid article is renamed

I don't know enough about the scientific uses of these terms to weigh in on any of the options myself (yet) but I do see that a merge has been proposed in the past but no real consensus has been reached, and I find the current state of affairs confusing (so I guess I at least know I don't support option I.) --Sapphic 17:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

There are a number of distinct varieties of minor planet (small solar system body is another synonymous term), such as "asteroid"s, comets, trans-neptunian objects, centaurs, near-earth objects, and each group needs its own article that describes those things unique to it. Then there should be a general article that gives the things common to all these small bodies, and some sort of classification of them. At the moment it's true that the information is spread over a number of articles in a haphazard way. Part of the problem in the past was that "asteroid" turns out to be poorly defined — it is sometimes used as a name for any small object that is not a comet ("small solar system body", with a few exceptions, then), other times refers only to the rocky small bodies that orbit closer to the sun than Jupiter. From what I've seen the second meaning is what is mostly used among astronomers, so asteroid should talk about only these rocky bodies. As for an overall article, a reasonable solution, I think, would be to keep only one of small solar system body and minor planet. Any things in those that refer specifically to "asteroids" or other groups would then be moved out into their appropriate more restricted articles.

In short, I would say that the articles should be kept (except perhaps for deleting one of small solar system body or minor planet), but sizeable portions of text should be shifted around, (e.g. out of minor planet). I'm not all that optimistic about a resolution of this though ;-( — cleanups have been suggested several times already. Deuar 08:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, as I've been looking into this more I've been finding out just how loosely and inconsistently these terms have been used throughout their history, so I'm not surprised that previous cleanup attempts have met with problems. There's the added complication that common usage doesn't necessarily follow technical usage (which is why several of my initial suggestions involve using Asteroid for disambiguation rather than the more technically correct Minor planet.) I don't think this is a hopeless cause however, nor should it really require that much (human) effort. I think a central page explaining the nomenclature issues (including the vagueness and historical inconsistencies and changes) could be linked to from the top of each of the related articles, and that would serve to tie them together and let them all act as disambiguation pages for each other, in a way. I'd say the differences between Minor planet and Asteroid that are most relevant to each article are those differences themselves (and not the things both have in common) and so highlighting the terminology in the intro makes sense. Once that framework is in place, I think it should be easier to move material between the articles in a way that makes sense, and which can be done gradually over time. --Sapphic 16:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan to me. Deuar 09:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It amazes me that people would seriously entertain the idea of merging asteroid and minor planet! Ask anyone on the street, "What killed the dinosaurs?" Are they are likely to tell you, "A minor planet"? Of course not! How utterly pedantic to think that, because asteroids are minor planets, or vice versa, there must be just one article. Shall we eliminate the article on Africa because it is a continent? Or, more to the point, shall we eliminate the article on "house", because it is just a common, vulgar, term for the much more correct "domicile"? This reminds me of the tiresome argument over the use of the term "organic", as in "organic food" versus "organic chemistry"--the nerds always claim some imagined, exclusive right to the word; "...it must be a hydrocarbon...!", but the term "organic farming" has its own right to existence independent of the narrow limits such people would impose on it. English would be a dreary language indeed if the minor planet exclusivists had their way! And I have nothing against minor planets--it is term with meaning and usefulness. Is there overlap? Of course! Anyone making elimination of overlapping information their top priority should be banned from Wikipedia, in my opinion. I propose that the merge template should removed, and I may do it myself sometime soon.Taquito1 (talk) 19:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Since the 2006 definition, "minor planet" has effectively become a historical term. The new three-tiered division which recognises planets, dwarf planets and small solar system bodies eliminates the need for minor planets altogether. "Minor planet" is not synonymous with "small solar system body"; the term encompasses dwarf planets, whereas SSSB does not. Therefore, I think the tidiest idea would be to merge minor planet with asteroid, and keep asteroid as the main article. Serendi^podous 11:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

From a IAU press release:

Q: Is the term “minor planet” still to be used?
A: The term “minor planet” may still be used. But generally the term “small solar system body” will be preferred.
Q: Are there additional “dwarf planet” candidates currently being considered?
A: Yes. Some of the largest asteroids may be candidates for “dwarf planet” status and some additional “dwarf planet” candidates beyond Neptune will soon be considered. The total number of dwarf planets to be found in the coming months and years could reach to over 100.

Seems to imply that asteroid is favored by IAU to the minor planet term, perhaps due to the confusion due to the minor planet term.

Does this mean that List of minor planets should be renamed as Listo of asteroids? Hello dear asteroid Pluto! Nergaal (talk) 12:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• This is a tricky one because the terminology is such a muddle. Whichever way we do it, I think we must keep Asteroid as a contentful article, and not make it a redirect to some relatively obscure term. Joe Public has heard of asteroids, and he's going to expect to find an article about them on Wikipedia. Matt 02:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.48.195 (talk)

IAU is now using the clunky (my opinion) term Small Solar System body to cover a variety of entities that would have fallen under minor planet mantle. Not all SSSBs are asteroids. The icy bodies in the outer solar system which are more cometary in composition, but their orbits will not let them display a coma. This group of minor planets is subject to a redefinition that would mean they are no longer asteroids. Keeping a limited article discussing the out-of-date term and doubling as disambiguation page. There was a prior discussion of what the minor planet article should be. I think minor planet, as it stands, fills its role nicely. I think this arrangement can withstand future IAU definitions. I don't see the need for change. As an alternative, create a section in Asteroid discussing the term "minor planet" and how it relates to "asteroid". Minor planet would redirect to that section. Novangelis (talk) 03:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• Looking at this some more, it seems to me that we need to decide whether the terms "asteroid" and "minor planet" are or are not synonymous. The very first sentence of Asteroid says in big letters that they are, in which case there is no need for two articles, and, I suggest, Minor planet should be merged to Asteroid#Terminology (which already covers similar ground). However, Minor planet implies that there is a difference. It says that centaurs are minor planets but not asteroids, even though Centaur itself says "The centaurs are a class of icy planetoids (or asteroids)". Minor planet also says that TNOs are minor planets but not asteroids. If the consensus is that "minor planet" is different from "asteroid" then the two articles should remain separate -- but the Asteroid article needs to stop claiming that they are the same thing. Matt 01:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.10.82 (talk)

This debate looks dead, and I'm removing the tag. My 2¢: Pluto is minor planet #134340. It is not an asteroid in anyone's definition. kwami (talk) 22:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Time line

(feel free to add to it):

• From 1801 (Ceres) until 1906 (588 Achilles) all known asteroids were clearly within the asteroid belt (a<4.3 AU). 279 Thule has a semi-major axis (a) of 4.27 AU.
• Trojan asteroid 588 Achilles (a=5.1 AU) at aphelion does get further out than Jupiter (a=5.2 AU).
• 944 Hidalgo (a=5.7 AU) discovered in 1920 was treated as an asteroid even though its aphelion is as far as Saturn (a=9.5 AU).
• The first centaur 2060 Chiron (a=13.7 AU) was not discovered until 1977.
• Chiron was often referred to as an asteroid since back then it did not show a coma and was not large enough to be a true planet.
• The second centaur was not discovered until January 1992 when 5145 Pholus was discovered.
• In August 1992, Trans-Neptunian object 1992 QB1 (a=43 AU) was discovered and everything changed forever. :-)

-- Kheider (talk) 04:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Merge or reorganization proposed

See Talk:Minor planet. -- Beland (talk) 08:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Ceres IS a minor planet! But some people argue that it may not be an asteroid. I believe that Ceres has dual classifications. But until there is a resolution on this matter I think it is good to have a separate article on minor planets for historical purposes since some people seem to believe not all minor planets are asteroids. -- Kheider (talk) 15:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• Is this a different "Merge or reorganization" proposal to the one immediately above? What actually is being proposed? Talk:Minor planet does not explain anything. Matt 02:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.48.195 (talk)

• I'll reiterate here that I object to the proposal to merge asteroid and minor planet. The template was inserted by Serendipodous on May 19, 2008, but I haven't seen an argument in favor presented by that user.—RJH (talk) 21:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I have not yet seen an official definition of "minor planet" that makes a clear separation from "asteroid". Most definitions appear to be colloquial or notional, rather than specific or official. The Kuiper belt is often described as comprising asteroids. Serendi^podous 21:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear that, however minor planets are defined, they include asteroids, and therefore form a superset. Thus the logical direction would seem to be to merge asteroid into minor planet. However, I don't think that is a good idea. Most people understand the term "asteroid", whereas "minor planet" is pretty esoteric.—RJH (talk) 03:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

So keep the title "asteroid" but redirect "Minor planet" to it. The minor planet article is mostly a joke anyway. This article already mentions the other minor planet groups. Some elaboration on other minor planet classifications (such as classical vs resonant KBOs) may be necessary. Serendi^podous 08:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I think at this point I'm leaning in favor of merging minor planet into the small solar system body article. The latter has the potential to be an ideal top-level summary article for all of the so-called minor planets, comets, and so forth. The use of the term "minor planet" can be prominently mentioned in the article's lead and in sections on terminology and historical usage. Does that sound somewhat reasonable? The IAU states a preference for using SSSB rather than minor planet, so that is probably the best approach to use. Thanks.—RJH (talk) 18:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good idea as, despite being officially endorsed by the IAU, the term small solar system body is rarely used. Spacepotato (talk) 21:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Well we have a page called List of Solar System objects, and the string "Solar system objects" gets a ton of ghits (including 5,480 Scholar ghits). As an alternative, what does everybody think about a summary-style article called Solar System objects that would cover the entire subject?—RJH (talk) 22:30, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

No change

These articles told me what I wanted to know. The "minor planets" are not all asteroids, and should not be in that article. Asteroids could go under "minor planets" but organization would feel clunky. Real people who are not astronomers are unlikely a priori to know terms such as "small solar system body". I believe these articles serve their current purpose as written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notthe600 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That distinction isn't fixed. There are many examples of people referring to "Kuiper belt asteroids". Yes it does appear that the term "asteroid" is gradually becoming distinct from "minor planet" in that "asteroid" is used primarily to describe rocky as opposed to icy bodies, but that is far from established. Serendi^podous 06:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How about merging with dwarf planet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.54.98.226 (talk) 22:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Not the same thing. All dwarf planets are minor planets, but not all minor planets are dwarf planets. Serendi^podous 05:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Morphology

An interesting story that would be appropriate for this page:

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2794&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

I just couldn't find an appropriate section for this. There's nothing on morphologies or physical properties that I could see, other than classification.—RJH (talk) 21:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

USGS's definition

[1] they say that only a part of the asteroids constitute the Main belt. What is left out? Nergaal (talk) 02:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Asteroids that are not in the belt. Near-Earth asteroids, for example.—RJH (talk) 18:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Not IAU but still interesting Nergaal (talk) 03:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Terminology section -- cleanup

It's great to see that someone has added a new chunk of text at the start of this section, better explaining some of the terminology issues ("The term "asteroid" is somewhat ill-defined..." up to "...this article will restrict itself for the most part to the classical asteroids: objects of the main asteroid belt, Jupiter trojans, and near-Earth objects.")

Unfortunately, it has just been spliced onto what was already there, resulting in the impression that the section starts again at "The term "asteroid" is used to describe any of a diverse group of small celestial bodies..." and then proceeds to explain pretty much the same material again in a different way.

These two explanations need to be properly integrated, with material from the second part being merged with the first part where appropriate, or deleted where it is essentially just repeating what has already been said. Matt 14:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.242.239 (talk)

Definitely. But every time I look at it, I lose all motivation to fix it up. kwami (talk) 09:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I had a go at merging the text, but some further cleanup may still be needed. I'm not sure that so much detail is needed for the outer Solar System objects in this context.—RJH (talk) 17:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

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