Talk:Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder/Archive 6

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Different articles

Shouldnt ADD and ADHD have their own articles? they are 2 different things —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.112.57 (talk) 04:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

ADHD (attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder) is currently the correct diagnostic label (and umbrella term) for both attention-deficit disorder with symptoms of hyperactivity AND attention-deficit disorder without symptoms of hyperactivity. WikipedianAndrew (talk) 03:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible?

I've worked with a disproportionate number of children diagnosed with ADD and ADHD. I've read and re-read all of the commentary from researchers, scientists, psychologists, teachers and parents. I've seen no research for those circumstances when the brain/central nervous system 'morphs' from a biological miracle into the different appearances of brain activity and structure that represent ADD. While I guess that there are biologically-suspect causes (this is not a new disorder), I keep seeing small references to "television" and the exposure or restriction of time spent with this type of 'child care provider', as either a potential cause or at least a partial preventative, respectively (depending on the article). I've not seen the implicit results of any research into the impact of early electronic game viewing on young, 'untrained' and still-forming neural connectors and the central nervous system mechanism. I'm curious to know how early-childhood, high speed, high color, intense visual exposure impacts brains that have not yet had the methodical 'training' required to recognize and work with basic shapes, colors and simple problem-solving and how this affects a developing brain. These brains (kids)jump directly into the neurological challenge of an intense, high speed, highly stimulating activity, often at significant durations and frequencies as a part of their early development. How does this stimuli affect the structural and functional area of the brain in early development? I have read that there is some affect to developed brains. I've also read that there are several additional stages of structural development of the brain, after early childhood--how is this subsequent nervous system development affected by ongoing exposure to electonic "high energy" visual stimulation? When may I read the results of this research?65.194.243.232 17:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Question

Why is it such an important topic to decide if adhd is a mental/ neurological disorder? I have been diagnosed and couldn't care less about it. Thanks. 134.106.199.50 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.106.199.50 (talk) 17:24, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, contributors here think it is important. I am not sure what your exact question is. In some countries, the importance has to do with the ability to get some kind of insurance coverage for treatment. It also can be important that it has official recognition that it be taken seriously in legal proceedings. People who have a diagnosis that is officially recognized seem to be treated better by the community generally and are likely to have more faith and hope in treatments.During 10:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DCDuring (talk • contribs)

Many people growing up with undiagnosed ADD are accustomed to having moralistic explanations acribed to their behavior-- that is "you're lazy", "you refuse to behave", "you don't think about the consequences of your actions". The idea that there's a neurology at work frees them from the feelings of guilt they've been trained to experience, gives them a different way of looking at themselves and lets them make a change positive in themselves. Whether ADD is, in fact, nuerological or not, that's why there's a lot of strong feelings about it. Stevecudmore 16:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The distinction will determine if the primary course of therapy is psychological or medical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.54.75.2 (talk) 21:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the dichotomy in the previous comment between mental/psychological therapy is false. The most appropriate treatment could easily involve both types. 128.112.49.106 (talk) 22:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Stevecudmore's and DCDuring's comments are relevant. While they observe that people with "neurological" illnesses are treated better socially than those with "mental" illnesses, this can be thought of as more of a social commentary on popular morality judgments. It might be useful to highlight that the fallacy underlying this social behaviour seems to be that "mental" illnesses are conflated with intentional behaviour. 128.112.49.106 (talk) 22:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

TV and ADHD

--Ss06470 01:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Fascinating that there is an August question about TV and ADHD and an article by Australian researchers directed at this very question which appeared in Pediatrics which I added here last week and it has already been deleted. Does Childhood Television Viewing Lead to Attention Problems in Adolescence? Results From a Prospective Longitudinal Study PEDIATRICS Vol. 120 No. 3 September 2007, pp. 532-537 (doi:10.1542/peds.2007-0978)

Good work ADHD police. Your diligence is an inspiration. How you get away with it is an amazing story but then so are the mailings I get every week (about 4 or 5)advocating for the vast number of patients I am seeing who must be put on amphetamines or Ritalin to treat their biological condition. I get more ads for this cause then the coupons my wife receives from detergent manufacturers Layman are beginning to be suspicions of Childhood Bipolar Disorder which has seen a 40 fold increase in diagnosis over the last 10 years. Could it be that our "experts" are salesmen for drug companies. They certainly are paid a fortune to make their point. But then I've said all this before including my references to Marcia Angell's editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine Is Academic Medicine for Sale. There are literally billions of dollars involved for drug companies in keeping ADHD biological. When are the people who run Wikepedia going to wake up and guard sites such as this from those who police this site and keep disagreeing facts from reaching the eyes of readers. Who are you Scuro?

Nice frame-up job there Doc.
With regards to TV and ADHD, these studies are correlational studies which means while you can see a relationship between the two variables studied, it doesn't necessarily mean that the two variables are linked. For instance there is a very strong correlational link between the number of churches in a square mile and the number of bars in a square mile. Does this mean that god makes you drink? If you speak the language of science and reliable citations we can communicate on this page. Otherwise you're preaching or spewing propoganda, Wikipedia is not the place for this. Start a blog or go to anyone of the prodigious antipsychiatry/scientology websites and I'm sure your contributions will be appreciated there.--scuro 02:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I have no doubts that this and other articles are propaganda of the pharmaceutical industry. It's useless to advocate on Wikipedia with facts. Same old story: if you say anything against it you are a antipsychiatrist or a scientologist.--Justana (talk) 11:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

How convenient it is to place all critics together with scientologists

Scuro. I tried last time to reason with the likes of your kind 6 months ago and it was a complete waste of my time, so this will be it. I consider Scientology nonsense and regularly prescribe meds when they are warranted. I also use stimulants for ADHD as a practical measure. They do work for reasons I try to elaborate in my article.ADHD and Other Sins of Our Children Many other medications have profoundly influenced psychiatric practice and been helpful. I defended Prozac and Lilly against wild accusation in the British Medical Journal [1] Moreover, I have little doubt that the recent increase in adolescent suicides is related to a decreased use of antidepressants as a result of the media hysteria .

However, there is no question that drug companies promote their drugs in unethical ways and unfortunately many "experts" are essentially hired guns for their point of view. I say this with profound regret and don't doubt that many of them consider themselves innocent and unprejudiced by the huge amounts of money paid to them. I keep mentioning Marcia Angell former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine who wrote her editorial "Is Academic Medicine for Sale" and then went on to write a book about this subject The Truth about the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do about It The editor of the Lancet was even more scathing in comments he made in the New York Review of Books.Horton, R. (2004) The Dawn of McScience. New York Review of Book 51, Vol4..Mental Health Another editor of the NEJM wrote an article in the JAMA with a similar assessment. The fact is 18 billion dollars have been spent on promoting drugs. It is completely out of hand. I invite you to read my article on ADHD before you so easily dismiss me. There are certainly positions that I take that may turn out to be wrong, but they are honest speculations. The consistent efforts here to exclude nonbiological points of view is not honest and should be labeled as such. I don't know if you work for a drug company or are one of the many people who have been convinced that their own problems are "not their fault" because they were born with ADHD, or whatever your motivation, but I once again invite you to reveal who you are. This site with its anonymous posting and claims to scholarly objectivity is absurd.

One last quote from my article

"It Was Like A Whitewash"'

Enter Dr. William Pelham, director of the Center for Children and Families at State University of New York at Buffalo (SUNY). A leading ADHD researcher for 30 years, Pelham is a former member of the scientific advisory board for McNeil Pharmaceuticals, which produces Tylenol and markets Concerta, a popular stimulant medication trademarked by Alza Corp. of Mountain View, Calif. Over his career, Pelham has penned over 250 research papers on ADHD, many with industry grants. In 2002, he was given a lifetime achievement award by the world's largest ADHD patient advocacy group, Children and Adults with Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (CHADD). In interviews with AlterNet, Pelham provided glimpses into the dubious methods drug maker McNeil-Alza uses to ensure that studies it funds produce favorable results for its ADHD medications. Between 1997 and 1999, he was paid by McNeil to conduct one of three studies used to get FDA approval. The company currently uses the three studies to claim that 96 percent of children taking Concerta experience no problems in appetite, growth, or sleep. But Pelham says the studies were flawed. The original intent of the studies was to measure both side effects and main effects of the drug. But two of the three studies, including Pelham's, required that the subjects had to already be taking MPH and responding well to it in order to enter the study. In other words, by stacking the studies with patients already successfully taking stimulants, McNeil ensured the subjects would be unlikely to register side effects, Pelham says.

"It's really misleading and I'm surprised the FDA is letting them use the studies to advertise no side effects," he says. "They had no side effects because they took only people with only a positive history of medication. This is really pushing meds without telling the full picture." There was also pressure from the company to tweak the findings, he says. Part of Pelham's study involved "providing parent training to parents, having a simple behavioral program in place on Saturday lab days, and establishing simple behavioral programs in the children's regular school classrooms." When his paper was in the galley proof stage at the medical journal Pediatrics, Pelham says he joined a conference call with a number of senior people from the corporation who lobbied him to change what he had written in the paper. "The people at Alza clearly pushed me to delete a paragraph in the article where I was saying it was important to do combined treatments (medication and behavioral)," he says, adding that they also pushed him to water down or eliminate other sentences and words that did not dovetail into their interests. "It was intimidating to be one researcher and have all these people pushing me to change the text." McNeil offered no direct response to the allegations.

"We cannot comment on unsubstantiated allegations," says Gary Esterow, a spokesman for McNeil Consumer & Specialty Pharmaceuticals, in a written statement. "The protocols and full study reports for these clinical trials were reviewed by the FDA, and provided the basis for FDA approval. Prior to publication, there was ample opportunity for full discussion of the data among the investigators. Publication of the findings reflect the prevailing opinion of the authors and is further supported by the peer review process of the scientific journals in which these studies appear." Pelham says McNeil didn't stop there. The company commissioned a follow-up study on the conversion study mentioned above. This time McNeil did the data analysis and coordinated the paper writing. "I insisted on seeing the analysis and having major inputs into the manuscript and it was like pulling teeth to get wording and analysis changed," he says. "It was like a whitewash, a praise to Concerta." Pelham says the company submitted the paper twice to the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. Drafts were sent to Pelham several times but he says he never returned anything with his signature. In the end, however, he says the paper was accepted without his knowledge and published with his name on it).

My assumption for the reason Pelham was pressured to remove the paragraqh emphasizing the importance of combined treatments (medication and behavioral) is that this would expose the limitations of pediatricians, who would be required to meet this standard of care. By far, the biggest prescribers of Concerta are pediatricians. Use would go radically down if the pediatricians could not believe that they were giving appropriate care based on reasoning that they were simply fixing the chemical imbalance. --Ss06470 13:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC) Simon Sobo MD

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ss06470 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I have no financial interest in any ADHD medication or drug company. Really I don't have to post that information but have done so because you appear new. Nor do I have to reveal who I am. You don't seem to have a firm grasp on the conventions of Wikipedia. On Wikipedia credible citable information is the gold standard, not reputation or articles published etc. Everything I post is based on citable information.
Dr. what you post is very much off topic on the ADHD talk page. Read the blurb at the top of the talk page for further information. Anything posted on this page should be for the betterment of the ADHD article. This is not the place to question someones credentials. I believe the talk page you should be posting on is "controversies of ADHD" or "disease mongering" talk pages. The information you posted here is off topic and consequently has the appearance of spam or propaganda.--scuro 15:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Here we are. A doctor who writes good information is treated like "Off-topic", someone who does not understand the rules of WP and is not credible and is making Propaganda and is considered as Spam!.

Scuro, do you believe that people are that stupid? You and all of those who are putting informations based on laboratories data and institutions that are linked with all the promotion of "disease mongering" in order to sell drugs are making propaganda. You can deny it but the public has already enough data to see clearly how unethical you all are.--Justana (talk) 11:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Genetics and ADHD

Was going through older posts and a question went unanswered from Scuro about challenges to the genetic basis of ADHD. Here are two:

THE MISSING GENE Psychiatry, Heredity, and the Fruitless Search for Genes Jay Joseph, Psy.D. Algora Publishing, January, 2006

Joseph Glenmullen, M.D., from Harvard Medical School had this to say "no claim of a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time, in spite of popular misinformation". This is from Glenmullin, Joseph (2000). Prozac Backlash. New York: Simon & Schuster, 192-198.

I perfectly understand there are conventions and rules here including that this page is not a soapbox, but it would not be necessary to debate these issues here if the page were not a police state. I invite you and other readers to compare the statement under the PET scan on the ADHD controversy page with the one on the ADHD page. Why has that statement been removed here over and over? That very dramatic picture has been used over and over "proving" ADHD is really biological when in fact it proves absolutely nothing. It is what one would expect if the person with ADHD wasn't attending to the assigned task. It is also amazing that

Looking over your arguments Scuro, you seem to have used that scientology, critics are a fringe nut group, once too often. How about attending to science and logic rather, than we all must be crazy. One thing I will acknowledge. The majority of doctors, organizations and "experts" agree that ADHD is biological. The question is whether they are right, why they keep calling themselves "experts" about subjects that we don't have answers for. Take a look at the Frontline interview of the NIMH leading researcher, Dr. Castellanos on ADHD about how much we actually know with scientific validity frontline interview(and he is a true believer in the biological basis of ADHD) The more general question is about the nature of group-think which is not limited to psychiatrists. When I was in training no one dared question Freud. Now almost all conditions are considered biological. I believe part of that is the billions of dollars being spent on keeping people thinking that way. I meant what I said about the number of mailings, seminars, CD, internet e mails, ads in journals. It is absolutely amazing. It would be one thing if there had been some major scientific discovery about ADHD in the last few years, but that is not the case!!! It is simply the amount of money to be made out there. The reason so many editors of reputable journals are writing about this is that they are very upset about it. They are not scientology nuts. At some point even you Scuro have to realize that your repeated generalizations about critics is off the wall. Every once in a while I will check in here to see if you are still using that same perspective. If you are and are continuing to remove contrary posts I will pose the question again. Exactly who are you and why are you doing this?

While Glenmullen worked at Harvard he isn't exactly without bias and would be considered an antipsychiatry figure. He was the one who publicly defended Tom Cruise on TV and who Breggin accused of stealing his antipsychiatry Prozac views. His viewpoints do seem to make it on a lot of antipsychiatry and scientology webpages. Beyond the internet he doesn't loom large. Thats not to say that his ideas couldn't have merit but rather he should be considered as a minority or fringe source. What he states is true though. No claim for a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time. That is because it is widely believed that several genes are involved with all of the mental disorders. If you want to call not allowing bogus information to be posted on the article, a "police state", go ahead. There are many valid criticisms of ADHD some of which are most likely not on the article. If you do want to bash the disorder I'd suggest you find better sources for your information.---scuro 12:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I am also listed on Antipsychiaty links but that is a silly characterizations. We are clearly critics not antipsychiatrists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ss06470 (talk • contribs) 12:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

But are the criticisms credible and of the majority or even minority viewpoint? If not we have fringe criticisms and they belong in their own separate articles. Fringe viewpoints really have no reason to be on an article except for possibly a brief blurb with a link to a belief based article such as "Ritalin causes brain damage".--scuro 15:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

To scuro

I am also listed on Antipsychiaty links but that is a silly characterizations. We are clearly critics not antipsychiatrists. I am not trying to bash ADHD. I believe the description of it applies to many children, I just don't accept it is a biological illness that has inflicted millions and millions of children

You seem to rely an awful lot on ad hominem arguments I have used my search engine and see you are everywhere. I ask again who are you? What is your connection to Dr. Barkely? It is fine if you communicate but I would like to know whether you simply quote him a lot or regularly communicate. You may not be required by the rules here to reveal this, but in ordinary ideas about scholarship it is an absolute requirement so that your credentials can be considered, especially since you delight in attacking others by reference to character rather than the substance of arguments Also a word about Dr. Barkley. He recieves money from McNeil Pharmaceuticals (U.S.) and Janssen-Ortho (Canada) (speaker fees) Shire Pharmaceutical Co. (Consulting/speaker fees) Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, Eli Lilly Co. (Speaker/Consulting fees) I don't doubt his claims that the amounts are not a substantial part of his income, but if that is so why doesn't he end these connections?--Ss06470 12:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It's useless User:Ss06470|Ss06470 . You are right but the "ad hominem" arguments of these people will always put people's serious work like yours under the label "anti-psychiatry" or "Scientology".

Scuro, and many other "Scuros" are everywhere. This one is one of the editors of "Anti-Psychiatry" article that is written to put your work as nonsense. We have better laugh otherwise we'll end up so bitter with all these absurdities that we'll put in jeopardy our well-being. Let's wait till all this scandal that psychiatry is promoting with the help of so many will be finally uncovered. It'll take time. A lot of time for the work of "Scuros" are well paid and count on support of institutions and powerful people as you know quite well.--Justana (talk) 11:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Justana, you are new. You can't simply tee-off on someone in talk. Wikipedia is not a messageboard or a blog. Your accusations are baseless, desist or risk being blocked. Please desist in making personal comments/attacks in talk. WP:EQ As Wikipedia policy states, comment on the content and not the contributor. Thank you.--scuro (talk) 21:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Simon Sobo can you follow the conventions of WIkipeida?

Listen Dr. S. you are way off topic once again. Let me reiterate, your assumptions about me are wrong and I'm not going to post my real name or further personal information. What you are posting is irrelevant to this talk page or is of a personal nature. Continue with this and you will simply be ignored. --scuro 15:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

length, content and similarities between article and poo

i swear to god this article keeps getting shorter and shorter. is someone removing bits from each section or something? wasnt that treatment section way longer. this article used to be better, im sure i dont like it change it make it better its shit. fuck u all for making it crap. and it says 'comorbid conditions are ODD.' wtf? whos changing this article into a pile of cow faeces?—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Please refrain from using offensive language. eXtreme Circuitz 01:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This article is non-NPOV

I myself am ADHD (Though taking med) but since before I was even diagnosed up till now (At least seven years) I have been the smartest kid in my school -- not just grade, the entire school -- and if I was given the chance to take the 10th grade math TAKS test now I would probably ace it, yet I am only in 7th grade. Consequent of reading this article I am highly offended by the description of the prognosis of ADHD. This article does NOT conform to the NPOV policy and should be revised accordingly. eXtreme Circuitz 01:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't just make generalization based on anecdotes and complain of POV. If you have any verifiable, citable, changes to the contrary, feel free to edit the page then. Voice-of-All 05:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a personal comment for eXtreme Circuitz and for the many young people with ADHD who read this article. The "prognosis" mentioned must be in reference to the Treatment section of the article, which indeed does give some information about prognosis for untreated ADHD (and not a lot is known about how treatment changes this). I'm 63 years old, and, while I was only diagnosed with ADHD in recent years, I clearly had the inattentive form early on. I was also the smartest kid around, I was bumped up one and one-half grades (having been in a private school, transferring to public school), and they would have bumped me more if my father had allowed it. And this is my conclusion: ADHD means, for me, that I can do things that are impossible for "normies." But some things that others can do easily, I can't do, or at least I cannot do them reliably. ADHD has had a major impact on my life sometimes a negative one. Once I was diagnosed, I talked about it with my brother, who is eleven years older than I, and, to my surprise, found that he was one of the first teenagers in the U.S. to be treated with Ritalin, and his hyperactivity was extreme. A summary: we have both done some amazing things, and we have both been unable to *complete* some of these things. My suggestion to anyone with ADHD is to learn as much as possible about it: in a sense, you can be proud of what you *can* do, and your skills can benefit yourself and others, you are important to society. But you will also probably be unable to do certain things, and you will need to know what they are and not beat your head against the wall trying to be what you are not. As an example for me, I lost an important client because I was working on another job, was absorbed in it, and forgot about an appointment until the time had already come. When I called to say I'd be late, I was told not to bother. Obviously, someone who can't remember an appointment must be too flaky! I *wasn't* too flaky, I did my consulting work, on time, and did it well. But I did have trouble, sometimes, getting to appointments on time! Now, knowing that, I'll set alarms so that if I get absorbed in something, I won't forget. Simple. Many of the ways in which we can improve our social function can be as simple as that. I've also had to learn that, surprise, most other people don't think the way I think, and when I don't factor for that in how I communicate with them, I can "drive them crazy," because for starters, I'm a dialectical thinker, I think in opposites. Others will interpret this as oppositional, simply being stubborn, which is an error. As well, I will sometimes fill in the picture of what we are talking about with a kind of shotgun consideration of fragments of the topic, all over the map, so to speak. People who need to think on one track at a time can be thrown way off by this: why did I change the subject? Of course, I didn't change the subject, I was merely considering wider aspects. If I want to be understood, however, I must modify how I communicate. And, then, there are drugs, legal and otherwise. I'm using legal drugs, prescribed by a psychiatrist. One (possibly two) of my children are using illegal drugs, for the same purpose. The illegal drugs bring risks that don't come with the legal ones; in order to get the legal drugs, one will need a diagnosis, which involves, among other things, an admission that there is a problem. If one is in denial about the problem, one may avoid solutions. Drugs are only a small part of the solution, though. --Abd 18:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It's been two months now with no specific objections lodged. I'll remove the POV-section tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eubulides (talk • contribs) 04:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

New results from Multimodal Treatment study?

Someone made a change to the introduction based on a BBC report, giving what seem to be preliminary, non-published results from the Multimodal Treatment study. The change about the results after one year was reasonable, that information was indeed published. The subsequent edit to show the three-year results, showing no long-term benefit, is based solely on the BBC report. That report has been widely echoed in the media as a "proof" that long-term results of ADHD drug use are nil. But I was unable to find any details of the actual new study. It is premature to incorporate such results in the introduction, which should be solid. The anonymous editor was properly reverted by User:Scuro. As to the one-year results, they might indeed be put into the article, with proper reference to the study itself (if it isn't already there, I haven't checked), but that's too much detail for an introduction. When the newer study is published, assuming it is published, after peer-review and facing general criticism within the field, some mention in the introduction might become proper and even important. This is a link to the BBC report: [2] --Abd 18:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I note the BBC report describes this condition as a 'behavioural condition' not a neurological one, and cites cases of children with obvious family and personality issues rather than focusing on 'pure' ADHD. It's interesting that many of those who are promoting non-drug approaches just happen to be those who make money from psychological and/or behavioural treatments that have even less evidence to support them. Of course many people with psychological or behavioural issues will benefit from therapy, but therapy cannot treat the underlying neurological condition. The BBC report neglects to discuss adult ADHD nor does it distinguish between ADHD and ODD. The simple fact is that for many people taking ADHD medication greatly improves their symptoms, of course if it doesn't they shouldn't take it and it's a good idea for people to have trial medication breaks now and then to test this. The diagnosis and treatment of ADHD is far from perfect and it is not clear that all or indeed most of those diagnosed with ADHD actually have the condition. I have ADHD and if I miss my meds, I feel like I can't see or focus properly, forget masses of basic things, feel overwhelmed and out of control rapidly and have no impulse control, and many others feel the same. I don't get violent and have a very high IQ and intellectual ability, but often underperform because of my ADHD symptoms. I'm so angry that the preliminary results of this one study are being blown out of all proportion and so many relevant facts are being overlooked. Another case of hype and scaremongering over science I'm afraid. Someone needs to tidy up the recent changes to this article that this BBC show seems to have inspired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.206.195 (talk) 21:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I am the one who posted the original BBC story. Sorry about the unsigned post. I wasn't using my computer then. Here is my suggestion

BBC is a verifiable source. Hence it cannot be deleted. However, the information should be put in proper context.
it should be mentioned that the result is still premilary
it should be also mentioned that the Multimodal Treatment Study of Children with ADHD is one of the most respected and authoritative study.

Vapour 23:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Note:I have seen some of the comments in online new media about this news. There are quite few negative comments from people who is on medication and who find the treatment helpful

Firstly, I should point out that medical study is about statistics, i.e. numerical assessment of both successes and failures.
Secondly, from what I read, the study seems to imply that behavioural therapy alone in long run work as well as the combined treatment of medication and behavioural therapy, implying that medication only provide temporary and short term fix.
Lastly, personal opinion, including mine, is irrelevant per verifiablity.

Vapour 23:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's about statistics, anecdotes prove little, except that they can point to directions for further research, and they affect how believable research might be. In any case, however, the study has not yet been published in a peer-review journal. The *news* is notable and could be in the article, properly attributed, but it's not yet *science*, i.e., the study results can't be reported yet as fact -- unless someone can find better sourcing. It's clearly, as well, about something controversial, and to treat the study *conclusions* as proven fact is premature. We haven't seen the study yet! What, exactly, were they studying, how significant were the results, what were possible confounding factors, etc. It's a bit dangerous to present fresh research in the article, even if it *is* published in a peer-reviewed journal. --Abd 20:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not the place to judge fact or science being conclusive or not. That is done by media or academic journal which wikipedia is supposed to report as verifiable and neutral. Vapour (talk)

Text that was removed from introduction by User:NuclearWinner

When removing substantial chunks of text, it's a courtesy to move it to the Talk page. That way, it is easier to find to reincorporate into the article, if needed. I agree that the intro was too long, so I haven't reverted this change, but there are facts here, with sources, that should probably go back into the article. I don't necessarily have time to do it....

Studies show that there is a familial transmission of the disorder which does not occur through adoptive relationships.[1] Twin studies indicate that the disorder is highly heritable and that genetics contribute about three quarters of the total ADHD population.[1] While the majority of ADHD is believed to be genetic in nature,[1] roughly 1/5 of all ADHD cases are thought to be acquired after conception due to brain injury caused by either toxins or physical trauma prenatally or postnatally.[1] According to a majority of medical research in the United States, as well as other countries, ADHD is today generally regarded as a chronic disorder for which there are some effective treatments. Over 200 controlled studies have shown that stimulant medication is an effective way to treat ADHD.[1][2]

--Abd 01:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You're quite right about mentioning big deletions on the talk page. There was no deletion - I actually did move all that material down into the "Causes" section, and left just a summary version up top. But I should have communicated that, and the lede still needs tightening. NuclearWinner 17:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it still does. (Somehow I overlooked the insertion of the material later.) And User:Scuro reversed the move. These changes should be discussed here. Note that the article has a tag indicating that the introduction needs tightening. This is part of it. I have reverted the change by User:Scuro. Quite possibly, some of this material could be integrated back into the introduction, but the whole introduction should be revamped, see WP:LEAD. --Abd 18:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The terms ADD and ADHD

And editor changed the term ADD in the article to ADHD. While this may be a correct move (I think it is), the editor apparently used a text editor to replace all "ADD" with "ADHD", thus changing the word "additionally" to "ADHDitionally," as an example, and also changing the occurrence of the term "ADD" in a reference, the title of a paper," similarly. Another, more experienced editor reverted it as a quick fix. The reversion should have been explained in the edit summary or here. "Don't bite the newcomers." --Abd 13:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


Academics

"A marked decrease in academic skills such as reading, spelling, or math is common with children who have ADHD." - Honestly, this has been the reverse in my experiences with peers and children diagnosed as such. While I can't change it (since this would be considered original research), I would sincerely appreciate a citation proving this effect. In my experiences, people with ADHD (or ADD) have been highly intelligent people with unique abilities. They are highly creative, able to focus very closely and for long periods of time on interesting tasks ("hyperfocus"), and able to remain comfortable in vague and imprecise subject matters, relying on the very same intuition that they attained as a coping mechanism in the non-ADHD world. kevinthenerd (talk) 02:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the effects of ADHD in children and how it impacts their academic skills can very a lot. I myself struggled with reading and writing, but excelled at math. -- Ned Scott 09:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course003.php
It will be in there...black and white, supported by research. There skills, ON AVERAGE, do lag their peers. Roughly a half of ADHDers don't finish high school...although a good chunk of that is because of behaviour. --scuro (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Controversy moved away from the main article.

... since I last looked at the site. That's a well-working lobby for you. -91.23.143.224 (talk) 11:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone screwed up the article

The reference section is ruined. And the introduction seems like it's attacking the idea before even introducing it. Someone clean up.99.225.178.225 (talk) 23:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

contentious new edits need to be discussed in talk before they are made

Recent edits have been challenged because they give undue weight to minority or fringe opinions. Please seek consensus first on this talk page before making edits which other editors disagree with.--scuro (talk) 05:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Especially when such edits disagree with what medical science considers fact. -- Ned Scott 05:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. The existence of 'ADHD' is challenged by qualified doctors and scientists, notably by Dr Fred Baughman, an experienced paediatric neurologist in his book 'The ADHD Fraud' . I have interviewed Dr Baughman about this at length, and think he makes a scientifically and medically coherent case which is ignored by this article in the bowdlerized form to which its self-appointed guiardians have repeatedly returned it. In science, those who wish to advance a theory must prove it through repeatable, peer-reviewed experiment. The supporters of the 'ADHD' theory have never, despite years of trying to do so, produced an objective test for its presence. Those who are diagnosed with it are likewise not diagnosed by an objective test but through a vague and subjective list of symptoms. It may well be true that powerful forces have an interest in promoting the idea that 'ADHD' exists, as do those parents who receive welfare benefits because their children have been 'diagnosed' with it, or the teachers whose formerly chaotic classes are now quiet because so many of their charges are now receiving powerful psychotropic medication whose long-term effects are as yet unknown. Whereas those who doubt it are not so powerful nor wealthy, and have no interest but a desire to search for the truth. I am being extremely fair, in my edits (which I propose to continue indefinitely until this article is fair) in leaving untouched the arguments of those who believe in ADHD, merely inserting language which makes clear that partisan assertions are not facts, and which also makes clear that the existence of this complaint is disputed. The size and extent of dissent against a popular or fashionable idea has no bearing upon its truth, or its right of expression. Scientific truth never has been, and cannot be, established by majority vote (not that I know of any ballot on this subject ever having been held) . If this were so almost no dissenting voice in science ( or any other field) could get a hearing on Wikipedia, and many theories now established as true would have been denied such a hearing at the time their discoverers were seeking to establish them . Their attempts to suppress the fact that this diagnosis has scientifically-and medically qualified critics, and remains unproven, and has no objective measure, are engaging in straightforward censorship and should desist. I have expressed some scepticism elsewhere about Wikipedia's unachievable fetish for a 'Neutral Point of View', but where there is deep division among scientists about the existence of a complaint then it is surely necessary for any article about that complaint to make that division clear from the start. Declaring those you disagree with to be a 'fringe' is simply ad hominem, and illegitimate in serious debate. Most established ideas have been thus dismissed at some stage. The scientific argument goes to the heart of the matter. Where is the objective test for a complaint which is generally treated by the prescription of highly objective, powerful chemicals which act directly upon the most sensitive and least-known organ of the human body, the brain? The contentiousness of 'ADHD' is the most important thing about it. Anyone researching it (especially, say , the parent of a child told by teachers or others that her child suffers from this alleged complaint) should be allowed to learn of this directly from Wikipedia. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

We know you disagree, and we know that trying to explain it to you for the 100th time won't do any good. You've been told about our policies, such as WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V, and others (such as Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer). If you can't work with us on this, and keep inserting the disputed edits, you will likely find your account blocked from editing. -- Ned Scott 21:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Who are "we"? Who appointed "we?" as guardians odf this entry? What right does this "we" have to exclude important truths from a Wikipedia entry, and to insist that partisan, contentious opinions are asserted ( and presented to the uninformed reader) as settled facts? You have a special nerve, advancing 'NPOV' as an argument in this matter . The article as edited by me takes a completely neutral point of view between those who believe in this and those who don't. I have deleted precisely nothing of the pro-ADHD argument, merely modified its assertions so as to make clear that they remain matters of opinion rather than fact, and balanced them with the opinions of those who oppose the theory. Attempts to classify the opinion you dislike as 'fringe' are pure ad hominem, prejudicial, without value and illegitimate in serious argument. How do you know who will eventually win this debate? Many major scientific and medical theories have at some point in their lives been held by a minority, and often a despised minority. Many subsequently discredited positions have been held by a triumphalist majority. As for threatening to have me blocked from editing, please do go ahead and try. I am very happy to take this to the highest available authority in Wikipedia, in order to ensure that the truth is not censored. Threats of this kind are no substitute for argument. What are you trying to explain to me? That you're right and I'm wrong? Are you? Where is your objective proof, your train of logic? You don't know that,cannot prove it by evidence or the rules of debate and have no business insisting that your personal view, however passionately held, should be given primacy over my equally legitimate one. So you reach for the censor's blue pencil, the last resort of those without an argument. The whole point of my edits is to show that the subject is one on which doctors and scientists differ. This is a contentious issue. It is simply wrong to present it as if were settled. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback (talk) 22:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
We refers to those who support the current consensus about this article. You keep inserting a bunch of weasel words, which is unhelpful. There is already an entire article about the controversy surrounding ADHD. It covers the arguments quite well. --Versageek 22:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
These are not Weasel words, which are designed to obscure or mislead. they are the exact opposite. . They transform assertions of fact into what they are, statements of opinion. Anyone researching ADHD needs to have the controversy fully explained on the entry about the alleged complaint. It should not be buried in an annexe. The fact that 'we' support the current consensus gives you, so far as I know, no special rights repeatedly to delete my contributions. A consensus is not, so far as I know, arrived at by the hostile suppression of dissenting views, along with patronising remarks about 'explaining it to me for the 100th time' as if you were the fount of all knowledge and I an ignorant child. You have done nothing here to show that you can defend your position. I think the current consensus results in an article which is highly partisan over an unsettled matter. That is why I made my edits. Can we please take this to whatever disputes process exists?

Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback (talk) 23:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I know that Clockback doesn't need my contribution or support on this matter but it seems to be a consensus thing and I believe this is important and that you are wrong in opposing him. I reverted the last edit because the 'disputed' tag was insufficient - it gave a link to the top of this talk page and you have to trawl through tons of stuff, inluding jokes, to find this issue. A reader probably wouldn't do that. You have proved that Clockback is right, in alerting us to the fact that there is an article stating exactly the opposite of this one. I think he is looking at this article from the point of view of a concerned, and possibly not that PC literate, parent. Logic would tell that parent that this entry would contain all the facts and it doesn't, it does what Clockback says it does - presents opinion as fact. Surely the most sensible thing to do would be to combine the two articles? I looked up ADHD tonight after a discussion with friends and typed in 'ADHD ADD wiki' and the 'controversy' was not listed - I expected all the facts to be in this article and they clearly are not. That's why I reverted and stated my opinion. I think the two articles should be combined. Miamomimi (talk) 00:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Medical science and reliable sources specifically indicate that this is fact, not opinion. If Peter wants the world to reject the idea of ADHD, then he needs to propose those ideas to the medical community, and properly back up those claims. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -- Ned Scott 00:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be fair to make note of the controversy earlier in the article than we do now (using appropriate wording) then, either source & reword those "critic's say" sentences that I tried to integrate under the diagnosis header or remove them. --Versageek 01:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


Baughman is nothing but a blowhard fringe antipsych critic. He gets paid by scientology and creates content for their media. Please show me the research that he has done, or any paper of his cited by notable researchers. Granted, he is very good cherry picking info to support his highly biased viewpoint. His website is not fredbaughman.com but rather ADHDFRAUD.com. He has come up with some beauts. In the quote below he explains away all the research done on the most studied childhood disorder of all time:..you have bio-psychiatry "researchers" not really biologists, not really researchers or scientists, apply the tools of biology and medicine to these entirely normal persons (some infants and toddlers) and, in this way you create a "scientific" literature, that becomes the stuff of their "scientific" meetings.
He is totally fringe. Cite other sources beyond Breggin and the other Antipsychs please. ADHD is accepted as a disorder by every health institute in the US, and as I know it the whole world. WHERE IS THE CONTROVERSY?...besides in the minds of antipsych critics and religious groups such as Scientology? Really what should be done is that someone should take the time to show the ADHD controversy page does not belong in Wikipedia.--scuro (talk) 02:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is an example (of the fact that controversy isn't just "in the minds of antipsych critics and religious groups.."): "There is no escaping the fact that ADHD remains a controversial diagnosis, however. Some health practitioners believe it is under-diagnosed in the UK, and that children are going without the help and support they need in order to make the most of their education and life chances; other practitioners fear it is being over-diagnosed, and some have serious doubts about or even reject the concept of ADHD altogether." From a government website Ancadi (talk) 09:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


Scuro, there is a pernicious form of incivility which consists of gratuitously insulting someone respected by another, and what is in your post above is clearly gratuitous to me, it is not necessary for working out the problems with this article (or, alternatively, with an editor trying to improperly change the article), the effect is, instead, to troll for outraged response. Stop it, please. Try applying WP:NPOV to your own writing here. There is content in your writing above which can be stated in an NPOV manner, I assume. But it is not. It's polemic, which generally does not belong here. --Abd (talk) 20:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I am encouraged by the response of 'Versageek' and propose to wait for a reasonable time for the self-appointed guardians of this page to make the modifications suggested. Otherwise I shall make them myself. I repeat that I am more than happy to take this matter to the highest arbitration available. having absolute confidence that my edits are justified. Mr Scuro's base ad hominem attack on Fred Baughman surely disqualifies him from any further discussion on the matter. Anyone who thinks this manner of debate is productive or likely to generate truth has missed the point of Wikipedia . Baughman is, as I suspect no other contributor to this site is, a qualified neurologist. He is now retired, with many years of paediatric practice, which would seem to me give him important expertise on the matter. He is not a Scientologist. I met him two years ago in San Diego, where he lives modestly. His interest in this matter appears to me to be disinterested (though it was sparked by an attempt, made on the initiative of a teacher, to diagnose one of his own children with 'ADHD'. The child's problems vanished when his teacher changed). He seemed to me to be a decent' level-headed and - crucially - scientifically informed and medically experienced person. He has written a book on the subject entitled 'the ADHD Fraud' which makes a cogent (if emotional) case against what he regards to be a grave wrong, his attacks on the attempts to establish an objective test for ADHD being the most important part of the book, where his neurological expertise comesinto play. The reasons for his strong emotions on the matter will become clear to any reader. Mr Scott says "Medical science and reliable sources specifically indicate that this is fact, not opinion. If Peter wants the world to reject the idea of ADHD, then he needs to propose those ideas to the medical community, and properly back up those claims. Wikipedia is not a soapbox". A fact, in science, is something that can be established by a repeatable, falsifiable, objective experiment subject to peer review. Can Mr Scott direct me to such an experiment showing the existence of ADHD, or establishing an objective, scientifically measurable diagnosis for the alleged complaint? No, he cannot, because no such thing exists. Therefore medical science does not indicate that ADHD is fact, but that it is a widespread but not universal contention, the point I seek to make, and a point which, I repeat needs to be known by those whose children are being prescribed with powerful, objective psychotropic drugs. If the 'treatment' for 'ADHD; were as vague as the diagnosis, I do not think this controversy would be anything like so important. It is the mismatch between subjective, non-physical, non-chemical non-invasive diagnosis, and objective, physio-chemical, invasive prescription which is so startling. It is a contention, not a fact, however powerful its supporters may be. Lovers of freedom know from history that the rightness of a cause is not measured by the number of supporters it has, or how modish it happens to be. A parent seeking help from the medical profession for a child with behaviour problems needs to know that the diagnosis is contentious from the start, and in my view also needs to be aware of the powerful financial and social interest groups unquestionably ranged behind the ADHD lobby. Medical practice is regrettably subject to fads and misapprehensions ( see the proposed precautions against cot death, which 25 years ago were a stern instruction to lay babies on their faces, and are now exactly the opposite, the horrible fashions for pre-frontal lobotomy and ECT, the surgical fashions in the 1950s for appendectomies and tonsillectomies, now long abandoned etc). As Mr Scott rightly says, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. I use every platform to which I have access to campaign against ADHD, being morally revolted by the mass-drugging of what I believe to be healthy children. But I am quite specifically and clearly not seeking to transform this entry into an anti-ADHD tract. I am, as I have stressed before, anxious to ensure that the existence of a controversy is made clear, and that the wording of the article nowhere implies that contentious opinions are settled truth. Truth is the daughter of time, and I personally have little doubt how the 'ADHD' cult will be viewed by posterity. I may be wrong, but even if I am, I think Wikipedians should be doing all they can to ensure that the entry on this subject will look respectable 20 or 30 years hence, whatever the outcome of this controversy. To pretend that there is no controversy, and to belittle one side of it by name-calling, may be fun. But it is not encyclopaedic, and it doesn't aid the truth. My thanks to 'Miamomimi' for her reasoned contribution, most welcome. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback (talk) 10:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm appalled by the way people who writes serious arguments are being treated. Clockback, you are right and I'm very sorry that you are being treated this way.

Once again: it's clear who are the people that take care of the Medical Editors Articles of Wikipedia. It must go to the medias because when people search the Web for ADHD the first article is Wikipedia. It has to stop.--Justana (talk) 11:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Fred Baughman = fringe source

Simply because someone is, or was a Dr., doesn't make them a majority opinion or even minority opinion. There were many Dr.'s involved in the holocaust, could we quote from them and call it majority or minority opinion? No, Peter...you would do well to read up on Wiki policy in this regard. Here is the link to a PBS series on ADHD. Here we learn that Baughman was paid by Scientology. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/interviews/baughman.html. If you are still going to hang your hat on Baughman I can go to the trouble of finding more sources, and more direct quotes, like the quote where he discounts all scientific research on ADHD in the field. The point I am making is that he obviously biased, in fact I can think of no worse source to quote from on the topic of ADHD. His bias is blinding. He does tell a compelling subjective story though. We hear of the poor plight of duped parents often, he does make himself out to be a knight in shinning armor. Baughman does harp on constantly about how there is no medical test for the disease ADHD. First off, it is not a disease but a disorder. Disorders are disorders because if there was a known medical test for the condition they would be diseases. There are many disorders where there is no foolproof test for diagnosis and they would include conditions such as Tourettes, Schizophrenia, and Parkinsons. Oh I forgot, he denies all mental disorders exist.

You can call us names but in the end it will come down to citable sources. I've been involved in arbitration before. You better get your ducks all lined up in a row. Not attempting to cooperate with other editors, and then acting unilaterally would be a major strike against you. The first order of business would be to find good reliable sources which state the diagnosis of ADHD is a controversy. Good luck!--scuro (talk) 13:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, where in the link that you provide above is it shown that Dr Baughman was 'paid by Scientology'? Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback (talk) 14:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
It does not say that, directly, however it does establish a consulting relationship. This is in the sidebar, I missed it myself on first reading. "An active opponent of the ADHD diagnosis, Baughman has been a child neurologist, in private practice, for 35 years. He is also a medical expert for the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), an advocacy group founded by the Church of Scientology in 1969."
He might be a volunteer, possibly, that could quite possibly be determined from other sources, particularly if CCHR is a tax-exempt nonprofit. However, it's moot here. The point is that he is associated with that group, as reported by a normally reliable source. I'd suggest to scuro, though, that this comment here was unnecessarily inflammatory. Seeking consensus here would involve determining the notability of Baughman's opinion and whether or not this opinion is sufficiently notable to be included in the basic text of the article, rather than in a specific controversies section. The anti-psychiatry movement is, in my opinion, notable, but not sufficiently so at this time to require mention in every place that an opinion from it is apparently controverted by common agreement among experts. I've suggested to Clockback that he study WP:NPOV, there is guidance there about the issue of balance in presenting controversy. We do not have to present argument in an article on planet Earth that it is flat, even though I've encountered people who, to this day, believe that.--Abd (talk) 16:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
If you have researched this topic as extensively as I have, and you have seen him or his statements in videos and many CCHR documents, you would realize that Baughman is anything but a volunteer who just happened to offer advice to Scientology for a brief while. He is labeled a "medical expert" by scientology, it would be highly unusual to call a volunteer a medical expert within your worldwide organization/ religion. Abd, you saw my action of pointing out this relationship as inflammatory. I see it quite differently. Here is a religion that doesn't believe in mental illness. This is obviously a fringe viewpoint and Baughman was/is? the medical expert for this religion. What I am pointing out is a clear bias that goes right to the root of neutral point of view. His viewpoint isn't neutral. Before you consider the notability of his opinion wouldn't it be best first to determine if he is a reliable source on this article?--scuro (talk) 01:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
scuro seems to think that the issue I've raised is related to whether or not Baughman is a reliable source. It's not. It's about Wikipedia process, about how editors with widely varying points of view come or do not come to consensus. Scuro, you have entirely missed the point. I did not state that pointing out the alleged relationship of Baughman to Scientology was inflammatory. It might be relevant. What I pointed to is the *manner* in which you did so. If this ever goes to Arbitration, you are going to look really, really bad. I'm not concerned with how Clockback looks, he's a newbie, appears to not have a clue what he is doing. You've been around longer, and you should know better. Read over these diffs: [3] [4] see if your language, which was polemic, was *necessary*. If you think so, well, you are going to have continual trouble on Wikipedia, it's likely to get you sooner or later. Clockback has indeed pointed out something: the present article is a bit imbalanced. There is notable controversy. Whether *Baughman* is notable or not. And that controversy is not properly represented in this article. It might not take much, and certainly every fringe argument does not get space and certainly not equal space with mainstream opinion.
scuro, let's focus on the article, and, please, be careful what you write here. You wrote, for example, "Here is the link to a PBS series on ADHD. Here we learn that Baughman was paid by Scientology. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/interviews/baughman.html." [5] What you wrote was incorrect, and you have not acknowledged that. I read the source, and it does not mention payment. Period. A statement like that to someone like Clockback simply convinces him that he is arguing with dishonest idiots. I don't think that is true, I think that, however, your certainty that you are right leads you to read things into the source that aren't there, and that is dangerous for anyone. By all means, use the fruit of your research to make sure that what is in the article is properly sourced, and that fringe "science" is not given more than its due, whatever that turns out to be. I suggested that you try to demonstrate NPOV *in what you write in Talk.* You can use yourself as a source for NPOV, that only conflicts with WP:RS and WP:OR, which are not POV issues. So you can state whatever opinion you like in Talk, sourced as your opinion. You can also simply state observations, things you know to be true, but ... did you know that the article you linked to didn't state what you claimed it stated? Anyone can make a mistake. Did you make a mistake? If so, the proper thing to do is to admit it, not to try to justify it by replacing a strongly-asserted "fact" with a weak inference, as you wrote, "He is labeled a "medical expert" by scientology, it would be highly unusual to call a volunteer a medical expert within your worldwide organization/ religion." Why would it be unusual? Religious organizations *commonly* experience experts -- and others -- who volunteer. It's a bogus argument. And it distracts us from dealing with the article. Clockback has been challenged to learn about Wikipedia standards, to try to focus on making *one* change, not massive changes, to find reliable sources, etc. He has just as much right to edit the article as you -- though he's certainly made some errors that could get his metaphorical wrist slapped. He violated 3RR, I just reviewed the contributions. User:Versageek reverted edits of Clockback and warned him. Versageek is a new administrator, so Clockback is one step away from being blocked, Versageek has the button to do it, and he could do it at any time. Clockback has been begging for the someone to complain to the "authorities," at the same time as he was edit warring with what passes for local authority around here.--Abd (talk) 03:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Sure I made a mistake, it's been a while since I looked at that article and I assumed the article explicitly stated he was paid by Scientology, it doesn't. There is a real possibility that he could be a volunteer medical expert for the CCHR but that would not be typical for the responsibilities or the work he has put in. Abd, I would kindly ask that you stop the "Dr. Phil" interpretation of my brain process and Clockback's...though, that certainly doesn't move the article forward and could be construed to be just as inflammatory as the behaviour you are illustrating.
So lets focus on the article. Where is the controversy? If this contention is to be added to the main article then please find the citation from any health institution in the world that ADHD is a controversial diagnosis or a fake disease. If not from the health profession then how about a legal judgement which questions the diagnosis? It certainly has been attempted. If not from there then how about any university in the world that states that ADHD is a controversial disorder. We are talking about the major pillars of society and you would expect them to comment on fake disorders. Baughman really doesn't matter. If there are no other citable sources besides Baughman, the additions wouldn't really have a leg to stand on. Now if the issue is not about controversy but rather about tweaking some of the wording, this is a discussion that might bring immediate results.--scuro (talk) 04:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Right. --Abd (talk) 05:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

From what I remember reading from Baughman, this is what he believes:

  • 1) Mental disorders don't exist.
  • 2) Medication for a mental disorder automatically changes the body in a permanent and negative manner, even on the first dose. These drugs are all very dangerous taken as prescribed, including Ritalin.
  • 3) All scientists who study ADHD are off base and offer nothing of value.
  • 4) Drug companies have brain washed doctors and society in general.

All of these beliefs are fringe beliefs and taken as a whole show blinding bias more akin to a faith based belief system. Unlike scientists, Baughman's beliefs don't change over time. Go back decades and what he states then is identical to what he states now. Scientists on the other hand change their viewpoint as more information is known. All of this relates directly to his reliablity of the source.--scuro (talk) 17:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Majorities do not decide scientific truth, and nor does fashion

You don't get it, do you? More ad hominem abuse, and more threats. No actual arguments, except one for my side that you didn't intend to make. Once again, I beg you, on bended knee, to report me to arbitration, or whoever it is you imagine will award these 'strikes' against me. I long for a disinterested person to enter this matter. Do you? You don't like Dr Baughman. Too bad. Every one of your contributions strengthens my case, packed as they are with ad hominem venom, and empty as they are of arguments about the issue at stake. I'm also touched and pleased ( as you somehow didn't foresee that I would be) by your admission of the rightness of my most fundamental point, that there is no objective test for the presence of this complaint(I do not use the word 'disease' to refer to 'ADHD' for this very reason). But shouldn't this distinction be made clear, from the start to the lay reader and worried parent who will be the most important reader of this entry? You say :"Disorders are disorders because if there was a known medical test for the condition they would be diseases". Well, exactly. Thanks very much. This is the only point I wish to make. On it hangs everything else that I say, and all the edits which I have been trying to make and which you and others have repeatedly struck down, using a mysterious authority which you have arrogated to yourselves. If you would make the point that there is no objective test for 'ADHD' in the opening paragraph, then I would be more or less happy, except that all the subsequent references to 'ADHD' would then need to be qualified, as I have repeatedly sought to qualify them. In which case the entire article, with its false assumption of scientific certainty, its (weaselly)repetitive use of the passive "considered by" needs to be edited to restore objectivity. I may not like the advocates of ADHD either, but the point about them is not that they are nice, brilliant, biased or whatever, or the opposite, or that any of them may or may take money from whoever they do or do not take money from. The point about them is that they have a subjective theory they cannot prove, on the basis of which millions of children are being given powerful objective drugs. As I said above, if the 'treatment' for 'ADHD' were as vague and nebulous as the diagnosis, I wouldn't worry. But it isn't. It is the mismatch between the two which is so important.
Yet again, let me point out to you the simple, unquestionable fact that scientific truth is not and cannot be a question of minority or majority, or of how fashionable an idea happens to be at any given time, or there'd never be any scientific progress. Orthodoxy always has the advantage, which often delays the arrival of the truth. If I were you I certainly wouldn't get into where the various camps in this argument get money from. I don't deny that Dr Baughman is biased. Of course he is. He doesn't deny it. So am I. I say I am. But my edits were deliberately restrained, and limited to attaining neutrality between the two sides in the controversy. The difference is that I am conscious of my bias, and of that of the witness I adduce, but you seem to think that you are immune from any partiality, and that your witnesses are likewise wholly disinterested and without partisanship. Don't be silly. Nor do I maintain that Dr Baughman is a flawless human being. The point is that he is a qualified neurologist(are you?), and an experienced paediatrician (are you?), and he offers scientifically verifiable criticisms of the diagnosis of 'ADHD'. You have stated above that you accept his single most important contention, that there is no objective test for the presence of 'ADHD'. I would of course welcome it if other doctors joined him (and now you) in large numbers. Many scientists are certainly highly doubtful of the diagnosis . But does it cross your mind to wonder whether there are any reasons, other than the ones that you cite, why they don't? As for "good reliable sources which state the diagnosis of ADHD is a controversy", I don't have far to seek. Wikipedia itself has an article on this very controversy. How do we go to arbitration now? You seem very keen to do so, but never actually do. In that case, please allow me to do so. But as a novice in these matters, I need to be told how to set about it. Can you, or someone else, tell me what steps I should take? Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback (talk) 14:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Clockback, I suggest you take a step back, and a deep breath. You are identifying relatively calm correction and warning as "abuse" and "threats." This error, in fact, has gotten people blocked on Wikipedia and one admin lost his position recently because he did just this. That you are a novice allows you to make quite a few mistakes before getting bitten for them, sometimes. Wikipedia process can be glacial. You could certainly attempt to take this matter immediately to Arbitration. It would likely be refused, just as someone who attempts to take a case directly to the U.S. Supreme Court would be wasting time and money. There is due process which should come first. It starts by editors communicating and attempting to find consensus. To aid this, there are a host of policies and guidelines to aid us and the one who has been allegedly abusing you has pointed to them. Where editors fail to find agreement on a common text, anyone can request comment from uninvolved editors with an RFC. If that fails to help, there is mediation, and if mediation fails, there is arbitration, which is binding, but which will only judge editor behavior and policy application, not specific content disputes. There are also bypass processes, such as taking outrageous behavior to an individual administrator or to WP:ANI. Any administrator could decide to take direct action, such as by protecting an article or blocking an editor; such actions are always appealable.
As to arbitration, note, editor behavior will be the primary issue. Simply repeating reverts is not going to be seen favorably unless accompanied by good-faith efforts to find consensus. Basically, if you are going to revert repeatedly, your case better be solid, and even if it is solid, violating WP:3RR can result in an immediate (but likely temporary) block. And you appear, here, by the very title of this Talk section, to be confusing opinion by a scientist with "scientific truth," which is a consensus, and itself not to be confused with "reality," or "absolute truth." I highly recommend careful study of WP:NPOV and WP:V, these are policy pages, not merely guidelines.
Clockback, you have been warned on your talk page. Take that warning seriously. No administrator is likely to block you if you have not been warned like that, warning is the first step in the bypass process I mentioned. If you continue without caution, you could indeed be immediately blocked. Read the warning, it contains some good advice, answering the question you ask above (with, I think, more detail than I have given.). --Abd (talk) 16:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I have indeed been 'warned' - by one of those involved in the controversy. I really cannot see why this is so significant. The self-appointed guardians of the page are apparently allowed to delete my legitimate alterations as many times as they like without penalty. But I am not allowed to do the same to them. I could just as well 'warn' him, if I knew how to post the fancy red triangle, but I don't. All I know how to do is to argue with facts and logic. My simple point, that this is a matter of contention, remains true and ought to be stated clearly at the start of the article. Wikipedia acknowledges this fact by maintaining an entry on the controversy. Your comparison of my position with that of a flat-earther is absurd and I could easily consider it abusive if I felt that way inclined. As it is, I have been abused by experts in my time, and am uninterested in that . Instead, I shall demonstrate the falsity of the comparisons by fact and logic, as follows: There are scientific proofs of the shape of the earth which are predictive, repeatable and objectively testable. That is why flat-earthers are absurd and it would be false equivalence to equate them with round-earthers. No such proofs exist of the existence of any complaint called 'ADHD', as even its advocate above admits. Therefore the burden of proof actually still rests on those who contend that there is such a thing as 'ADHD', as they well know, which is why they get so upset (and intolerant) when anybody says the emperor hasn't even got any socks on. The 'abuse' to which I refer is the repeated ad hominem abuse (undoubted and repeated) and unsubstantiated allegations (see above) levelled without evidence against Dr Baughman (to which outrage and offence against civilised debate you respond above with the mildest possible language, compared to the stern tone you take with me - and by the way I was well aware of the sidebar when I made my comment). The threats are exactly that, repeated threats to report me etc, which are never actually fulfilled, much as I would like them to be - another characteristic of threats. What other word would you use? I'm happy to adopt any reasonable alternative. And now you're doing it too. If I continue *what* without caution? I'm stating my case on the talk page, with great patience and despite the unwillingness of my opponents to deal with my arguments, clearly made. Their only response is to make nasty remarks about Dr Baughman. I have held off restoring the censored material in the hope of a compromise. I continue to do so. But a compromise involves some movement by the pro-ADHD faction which appears to think it owns this entry. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback (talk) 17:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you aware, Clockback, that you are making pure ad hominem arguments? Consider the warning placed on your Talk page. It does not matter *who* placed the warning. It's there and you are now on notice as to WP:3RR and other policies, and you may now legitimately be held responsible for following them. I have not researched to see if you have actually violated 3RR. That is *your* responsibility. Read the policy; neglect it at your own risk. Lest you think this process is biased in some way, a 3RR warning was placed on my own Talk page by a sock puppet for an editor involved in an edit war with me. The administrator looking at it promptly blocked everyone in sight, including me, as a "calm down everyone" kind of measure. My block was quickly removed, the sock was permanently blocked. Placing a 3RR warning will, if followed up by a complaint, indeed attract administrator attention to the complainant as well as the alleged offender. The policies apply to everyone, even to administrators. You ask a lot of questions above and make a lot of statements that could invite argument. Slow down. Decide upon a goal. What *exactly* would be the *first* step toward what you see as an improved article? Forget about the other editors; every article has biased editors and they *help* improve it *if* they come to understand policy and the Wikipedia principle of Assume Good Faith. I know it can be hard sometimes.
Look at it this way. If you have the goal of improving the article, the way you are going about it is not going to work. Too many issues raised too quickly, too many controversial edits at once. Is Baughman and the anti-psychiatry movement mentioned at all in the article, including external links? If not, is this a violation of Wikipedia policy? If you think it is, attempt to fix it. Stay focused on the *policy* and the *article*, not on the other editors, your opinions about them will simply distract you, and, indeed, may enrage you. Drop concern about them, if you can. If you can't, may I suggest medication? (That's a joke, by the way, but it points to how our emotional responses to things may disable us from being effective, which I'd call a "disorder.") As to my own position, I have long been diagnosed with ADHD, and my regret about it is that I did not pay sufficient attention to the diagnosis for a decade. My guess is that I'd be a half-million dollars richer. It's a disorder, I have utterly no doubt about it. The edges of the diagnosis are certainly debatable, and it is entirely possible that it is over-diagnosed. But I'm not marginal, at all. When I finally read Driven to Distraction, I got chills on every page from self-recognition. And there is much much more I could write. So am I unbiased? Probably not. But I have no specific opinion about Baughman and it seems to me that you are judging every contributor, every editor, with an automatic classification of them into pro and con. It's normal for editor misbehavior to come first to the attention of those interested in the article. Nobody else is watching! Definitely, cabals of editors can come to exist even without planning, but you are *not* being censored. Every change you make remains in History, and you will note that nobody is taking out your Talk contributions (it's generally offensive to do so unless there is a very good reason, there is even some discouragement of taking out one's *own* contributions if others have already responded to them -- use strikeout if you decide that you said something wrong).
Summary: slow down, aim for *one* small improvement. Negotiate it. There are editors here who care more for NPOV than they do for any personal POV. I'm one. If you confine yourself to one narrow point, you will find support for what is legitimate about your effort. Otherwise, well, you can lead a horse to water.
One point: those undoing your edits are subject to the same reversion limits. If you think they are violating 3RR, warn them, and consider filing a complaint. I doubt that they are, but do realize that even *one* revert in one day can be considered excessive, particularly if it's edit warring, it is up to admin discretion. What I saw of your contributions, though, is that they did not satisfy Wikipedia standards for sourcing and balance, and *anyone* may revert such contributions on sight, generally. *Discuss* possibly controversial changes in Talk *before* making them to the article. Yes, you can be bold, but also be aware that bold editors better know what they are doing. On the other side, you get to make lots of mistakes without consequence *usually*. Refusing to learn from mistakes, though, will get you in trouble everywhere, not merely on Wikipedia.
--Abd (talk) 17:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I am not aware of any such thing. An ad hominem attack is an attack on the person( eg the attacks by some above on Dr Fred Baughman). I have attacked the methods and the arguments(or rather the lack of them) of those who have arrogated themselves the right to censor legitimate contributions. I have also clearly stated that I will not change the article while I seek a compromise. No compromise has yet been offered by the unquestionably pro-ADHD editors who have removed my edits on the grounds that they do not agree with them. At least, they have yet to produce any other grounds. I would happily negotiate an improvement with anybody who showed any sign of negotiating anything. All I get is ad hominem attacks on Fred Baughman, and threats to report me to the authorities, which I beg the authors to act on. Please. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Assuming good faith, you have said it correctly: you are not aware, see below. There is an exception to the reversion limits. I just reviewed the article history, and you made 4 reverts in 24 hours, edit warring. Who were you edit warring with? Clockback, you reverted an administrator's reversion of your reverts. The user who warned you, on your Talk page, is an administrator. You claimed above that the warning was from one involved in the dispute. That is an ad hominem argument about the warning -- i.e., you think you may disregard the warning because it is from someone who you think has a conflict of interest. Yet your edits were so blatantly in violation of Wikipedia policy that an administrator appears to have been motivated to revert you repeatedly. That is not necessarily an involvement in a content dispute, he might, assertedly, simply be doing his job. You were edit warring with an administrator, Clockback, which is not a terribly bright thing to do. He could block you immediately for the WP:3RR violation. Even if you *are* Peter Hitchens.
Look at how inaccurately you respond to what is said to you. If you are, indeed, Peter Hitchens, the journalist, you might be concerned about that. You were told that you were making an ad hominem argument. You responded with reference to an "ad hominem attack." An attack is not an argument and an argument is not an attack. An ad hominem *argument* is an argument that something is false (or, in this case, to be disregarded) because of whom it comes from. In this case, you wrote, "I have indeed been 'warned' - by one of those involved in the controversy." You were warned by an administrator, who also was acting to try to encourage you to work out improvements to the article in Talk. You've also been told how to pursue dispute resolution. But "threats to report you to the authorities" -- which I did not see, by the way, where was that? -- are now moot. The authorities arrived, though how much User:Versageek will do before he moves on remains to be seen. Admins are terrifically busy, there are far too few of them and far too many users who think every opinion they have deserves to be in an article. --Abd (talk) 04:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
A simple question for you Clockback and with your answer, I'll respond to your argument. Do the disorders Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Tourettes, and Schizophrenia exist? ...and if they do how do we determine this in the individual?--scuro (talk) 05:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
A simple answer for you. Please stick to the subject. We are discussing 'ADHD', and whether there is a controversy over its objective existence. I am not discussing the other complaints you mention and do not wish to be distracted from my point by doing so. If this interests you, I recommend you address yourself to the sites concerned. Please simply address the question at issue which is :"Is there a controversy over the existence of ADHD?"

Since there undoubtedly is, as acknowledged by the existence of a separate Wikipedia entry on that very controversy, the article is seriously deficient because of its lack of NPOV on the dispute between those who believe in 'ADHD' and those who don't, and also because of the persistent use of weasel expressions, especially the passive voice. We have already established in this discussion that even those who believe in 'ADHD' accept that there is no objective test for its presence, and therefore cannot maintain it is an established or undisputed scientific fact, or even one open to disproof. Please do respond soon. I have refrained from further edits in the hope of a compromise, but cannot wait indefinitely for any sign of one. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback (talk) 08:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Scuro asked a relevant question. The disorders mentioned are *routinely* diagnosed in a manner that can be considered subjective by the standards you appear to be applying. So you are being asked what standards *can* be applied to determine the "objective existence" of ADHD, that are not simply invented for one particular syndrome. "Objective existence" is itself a problematic concept, one particular way of discussing "reality." Is there an objective proof for objective existence? So let's not go there. Articles on Wikipedia are based on notability and reliable source, not "truth" and "reality." Reliable source can exist for total fantasies, which can also be notable. Unless there is consensus that it's a fantasy, we can't state that it is, that is POV. We can note controversy, if the controversy is "notable." Yes it's circular, I've been trying to work on that aspect of policy. Ultimately, short of appeal to User:Jimbo or the WMF board, notability is a matter for community consensus, there *is no objective standard of universal application,* though there are certainly guidelines and policies, all of which have exceptions. Once again, Clockback, you are being pointed to community consensus. Participate in it, with civility and patience, it can take lots of both. You will have assistance, and the issues you raise are not going to go away, even if you give up. --Abd (talk) 14:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

To 'Abd': 'Versageek', the administrator you mentioned, is a participant in this discussion and appears to me to take one side rather than the other. This is a simple fact. See above. Clockback (talk) 08:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Clockback, the question of conflict of interest by administrators is a complex one. Administrators often intervene to suggest proper process, and will sometimes do the reverts necessary to maintain it, even though they have no personal interest. It's hard for an editor with a strong point of view, sometimes, to see the administrator intervention as neutral. However, my personal opinion is that