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Archive 2

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Contents 1 Cartoon 2 Requested move 2 3 Problem 4 Suggested edit 4.1 Suggested new version 4.1.1 Palestinian reactions 4.1.1.1 Initial response 4.1.1.2 Later responses 4.2 Discussion/Objections/Suggestions 5 Eyewitnesses 6 Celebrations reported by eyewitnesses

Cartoon

I removed this because it is giving massively undue weight to PMW's interpretation of a cartoon, as I explained in the edit summary. It is of course not clear at all that the cartoon is a celebration of 9/11 - the only reason it has been placed at the top of the article is because a propagandist advocacy group has alleged that they see it as such. That's a pretty flimsy basis to have it here at all, let alone in such an attention grabbing place. It's all anyone casually glancing at the page will see. I'm removing it again - please give a rationale as to why it should stay if you want it to. --Nickhh (talk) 09:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It is quite clear (to me at least), that a cartoon showing OBL raising his fingers in a "victory" sign made up of smoking WTC buildings is supportive of OBL. However, thsi is no tbaout your opinion nor mine, but about the celebrations of the 9/11 attacks. The cartoon is as good a representation of that as any other image, and the caption clealry states this is PMw's interpretation. Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

PMW is an anti-Palestinian non-RS. Find another RS that interprets the cartoon as a celebration. Imad marie (talk) 05:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

PMW is considered a WP:RS. We've had a few discussions on this before. In short, CNN and other major sources, believe they are RS and use their translations for reports.

Samples: The Washington Times^[1],Washington Post^[2],BBC^[3],Reuters^[4], Forbes^[5],Jerusalem Post^[6],Channel 2 (Israel)^[7],The New York Times^[8].

I hope this satisfies the RS issue. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 05:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I reverted the cartoon back. I independently came to the same conclusions and Jaakobou per WP:CENSOR. --GHcool (talk) 17:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Huh? The fact that some papers and broadcasters have used PMW's translations is evidence that a cartoon needs to go into the lead of an article as the dominant image, based on their assertions and interpretation of what it means, with the qualifier in small print? Please. We could argue the point endlessly about whether it is a celebration (it clearly isn't itself - it's a drawing showing Bin Laden supposedly celebrating), but as you quite correctly point out, what you or I think of the meaning behind the cartoon is irrelevant - however you go on to contradict yourself on that point by asserting that it is a "good representation" of alleged celebrations. And "small number of .." is going back in, despite your claim that they are weasel words. Isn't three a small number? Or are your going to contest that point too? Please do, I look forward to an interesting debate. This article is enough of a racist travesty as it is without this sort of nonsense masquerading as a principled stand against so-called censorship. --Nickhh (talk) 07:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The fact that well known mainstream newspapers of record and national broadcasters from the New York Times to the BBC have used PMW’s translations is not reason, in and of itself, to use their article, but it is more than enough to rebut the claim that PMW is not a reliable source.

The words “a small number of…” are clearly weasel words, apparently intended to minimize the importance of these events (an appearance which is corroborated by your history of editing on this article –from your attempts to have it deleted, wholesale, to your describing it as a ‘a racist travesty’). To you they may seem a small number, to others they may seem a lot – there is no need for this subjective editorializing. As to your claim that “three…is uncontroversially a small number” – that is again a context-dependent POV. Three is a very small number of spectators in an NFL game. Three is not a small number of brain surgeons operating on a patient. Three is a small number of bees in a hive, but it is not a small number of rapists in a gang rape of a woman. You may think three cases of celebrations of mass-murder is a small number, others see it differently. That is why we don’t editorialize and interject our personal interpretations of the fact. As a side note, I don’t know where this “3” came from. In fact, our article provides details about 4 such instances, (in Nablus, East Jerusalem, Ein-el-Hilweh and Rashidiyeh) but I have not seen a source claiming these are the only instances. Quite to the contrary: looking at this CNN article used as a source for the article, it mentions a fifth one – in Ramallah. If we are going to introduce quantifiers, we should stick to the ones used by the sources themselves. For example, the BBC article used as a source captioned its images of celebrating Palestinians “Many Palestinians at refugee camps in Lebanon celebrated”, and the Fox article says “thousands of Palestinians celebrated”

Finally, please stop removing sourced material. You don’t like The Weekly Standard – we get that, but that is not reason enough to remove sourced criticism which comes from a notable journalist – Charles Enderlin. Canadian Monkey (talk) 04:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I miscounted - four cases in total are referred to in the article, not three. And yes that is a small number, per your examples, when compared to the mass reaction the other way. You however seem to be making the more fundamental error of getting confused between the number of alleged demonstrators and number of demonstrations, judging by your comments above. Also asserting generally that the Weekly Standard and PMW are reliable sources (debatable anyway, especially when it comes to comment or interpretation) is not of itself a good enough reason to keep in the specific points sourced to them in this article, especially when it comes to what goes in the lead. Wikipedia is not a cut & paste of every single thing that has ever been said by every newspaper, magazine or activist group. Please actually address the actual issues in this case, which as ever revolve largely around WP:UNDUE. --Nickhh (talk) 10:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

If you think my examples confirm that 3 (or 4, or 5) is a small number, regardless of context, then you misunderstood them. Do you think it is appropriate to describe a woman who was gang raped by 4 rapists as “She was raped by a small number of rapists”? I don’t. Similarly, I don’t think 5 instances of celebrations of mass murder is a small number of such celebrations. You seem to think so, but that would be another case where we disagree- and for that reason we don’t put our personal, biased opinions into the article, and we don’t describe something as “a small number” unless a reliable source has done so. I am not making any “fundamental error” – I am aware of the difference between the number of celebrators (which was in the high thousands) and the number of instances of such celebrations. What I am saying is that if quantifiers are to be used, they must be those used by reliable sources – such as in the examples I gave. That would entail changing the lead to something like “The September 11, 2001 attacks occasioned a outbreaks of public celebration by thousands of Palestinians in some Arab communities in and around the Palestinian territories.” If that is compromise you are willing to accept, I am fine with it.

As to the sources – neither WorldNetDaily nor PMW is used in the lead – the next time you remove sourced material I will treat it as vandalism. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Fairly obviously, I was referring to those of your examples which you agreed constituted a small number. I didn't think I would need to spell that out. As requested, I'm adding a source for the "small" quote. It's an AP report and is quite recent, so also has the benefit of having been written with some perspective. However of course you have still not addressed any of the points about due weight (the PMW allegations are of course in effect in the lead, as the cartoon has been put level with it. I never claimed the Weekly Standard [sic] reference was). I can do without the slightly pompous accusations of vandalism please, and I'd also rather you backed off from the constant use of the gang rape analogy. --Nickhh (talk) 17:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for (finally) producing a source that describes the number of celebrations as "small". I've restored the relevant cartoon, but moved it lower in the page to address your concern - I hope this compromise will be acceptable. As to the WS criticism - if we includes Arafat's gesture, we can include criticism of it, sourced to a reliable source. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

(Reset) Sorry, I really didn't think it was that controversial. I would still argue that the cartoon itself should not be here at all - a picture should illustrate the topic of the article, not be posted as merely an alleged example of something. I'd happily have a straight text reference to the PMW allegations, but I don't think myself it needs more than that. Equally with the Weekly Standard, a reference to the report that no donation actually took place would be totally in order - a value judgement about the worth or otherwise of the gesture, based on one op-ed is not. I'm sure if I trawled the web I could find a comment piece from an online magazine thanking Arafat for his "brave gesture of solidarity" or whatever, but I wouldn't be putting that in there. --Nickhh (talk) 10:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

We obviously disagree about the cartoon, you think it should go, I (and at least two other editors) believe it is relevant, and liked it being on top. I think we've achieved a decent compromise. If you find some reliable source thanking Arafat for he fake gesture, I have no problem with you adding it to what's already there. I also don't mind rewording that section to remove value judgment, and leaving just the fact that the donation did not happen but was a staged photo-op. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to edit anything else here, apart from one last thing - as I'm sure you've noticed I don't think this whole subject merits a page of its own anyway. Given that, I agree that it looks a little better now. The "I like it [where it is]" language about the cartoon has been used by another editor as well, and says all we need to know about this page I'm afraid. To throw your words back at you, you can "believe" something is relevant when it is clearly contentious as to whether it is or not, but "the lead is not the forum for your beliefs". --Nickhh (talk) 20:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggested compromise: Would the word 'several' solve the amounts of "outbreaks of public celebration"[9] part of the argument? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I am fine with this, or with my suggestion above. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

See above. --Nickhh (talk) 17:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh, Please clarify. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 2

Is the title of the article appropriate? shouldn't it be: "Palestinian celebration of the attacks"? or something like that... Imad marie (talk) 11:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The article mentions some public show of support by non-Palestinians in Iraq. But I would not be opposed to changing the title, per your suggestion, as it seems the majority of celebrations were indeed by Palestinians.Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I would not want to see the title of the article changed. If there were other celebrations, they can be listed. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

They can? Even the celebrating Israelis? // Liftarn (talk)

What other celebrations? Now 7 years after the attacks I think we can judge if there were any other celebrations, if we don't have any, then this article title is inappropriate. Imad marie (talk) 05:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

A title change would falsly suggest all the Palestinians celebrated the attacks and would be cause for more WP:AFD requests, I'm sure. Rather than seeking to narrow down the article, we should seek to expand on it by adding relevent information. However, the "5 Israelis"="Israeli celebrations" is a bit of a WP:FRINGE and quite WP:UNDUE. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 07:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It's quite obvious that the article is entirely based on the Palestinian celebration. And you are right, a title with "Palestinian celebrations ..." would be POV, a neutral title would be "Sept 11 celebrations by some Palestinian protesters" "Celebrations of 9/11 attacks by some Palestinian protesters". Imad marie (talk) 07:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian celebration of the attacks is obviously not a good title; Which attacks? Palestinian celebration of the September 11, 2001 attacks is too long. Other suggestions? Trying not to just rehash the old arguments, please. Andrewa (talk) 04:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I already suggested a better title: "Celebration of 9/11 attacks by some Palestinian protesters", the precision of the title is more important than its length. Imad marie (talk) 05:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

That adds information to the title, but not precision. Should we also say what they were wearing at the time? No, information such as this belongs in the article text. Andrewa (talk) 10:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Article_titles, "Titles should be short—preferably fewer than ten words", the suggested title is 8 words in length (including "of" and "by") so I don't see a problem with the title length.

The entire article is based on the Palestinian celebration, so what is the problem with showing that in the title? You are strangely comparing an important fact like the celebrants nationality with what they were wearing!! Imad marie (talk) 10:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

If there are ever citeable reports of celebrations by other nationalities, it would be appropriate to add the information to this article. The topic is any celebrations. Agree that the nationality is more important than the dress, but both are incidental. Celebrations by any nationality would have been equally offensive to the USA. Andrewa (talk) 04:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

So you want to keep the current title in case there are future celebrations? It's been 7 years since the attacks, and it's very unlikely that the article will include any other celebrations. And it's obvious that the current structure of the article is based entirely on the Palestinian celebration. Imad marie (talk) 07:56, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

No, that's neither what I said nor what I want. I've given my reasons that this is a better name. The topic is celebrations in general, not just Palestinian ones, and it's a good topic, and one of enormous interest... as this discussion itself demonstrates. There is no reason to believe that the celebrations were restricted to Palestine, but nor do I have any good evidence that they were not. And such speculation doesn't belong in the article of course. Agree that the current article is based on the Palestinian celebrations, obviously. Andrewa (talk) 06:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

If I get no objections, I will proceed with the move. Imad marie (talk) 10:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

There are a few objections above. It's quite uncivil to suggest they don't exist. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC) remove judgemental tone. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

And I'm waiting for a reply for my last comment, if any exist. Imad marie (talk) 10:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I object to the move as proposed (i.e. to "Celebrations of 9/11 attacks by some Palestinian protesters"). The people who celebrated the 9/11 attacks were not protesters; they were celebrants. Although the celebrations detailed in this article have a political element to them, they cannot be interpreted as protests. Remember: the celebrants considered the 9/11 attacks to be a good thing. Nobody protests a good thing. Celebrations of the 4th of July by people who are in favor of America's independence cannot be considered protests any more than celebrations of 9/11 by people who are in favor of the deaths of innocent Americans can be considered protests. --GHcool (talk) 16:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Reply posted. See above. Andrewa (talk) 04:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Problem

The article was previously nominated for merging, but did not succeed. The problem may be revisited. This article and International reactions to the September 11, 2001 attacks should be merged to form a single article with the title Views on the September 11, 2001 attacks. This article actually documents the positive views on the event. The people holds positive view forms a minority while the mainstream view is negative. This may solve the NPOV problem. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You have a point, now that International reactions to the September 11, 2001 attacks is created, I don't think that listing every single reaction is possible, and on the other side, listing some reactions and leaving others is not good. An article named Views on the September 11, 2001 attacks may be a good alternative.

And I still hold my previous opinion, this content fork article is needless. Imad marie (talk) 07:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The article is important enough and long enough that it deserves an article on its own called "Celebrations of the September 11, 2001 attacks" or, alternatively, something like "Palestinian celebrations of ...". Just so long as this article remains separate from the general international reactions. --GHcool (talk) 16:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree with GHcool. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's cut the crap and be frank here, who wants this article to exist? pro-Israeli/anti-Palestinian editors who want to show Palestinians as celebrants of mass murder, this article is a clear Israeli propaganda. If wikipedia has the slightest sense of NOPV then it would not allow such an article. Imad marie (talk) 06:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

You have twice nominated this article for deletion, and the community has twice rejected this. The closing sysop described the second AfD nomination as ill-considered. So I'm sorry that you feel that way about Wikipedia, but it appears to me that you are the one promoting a POV here. And of course you're now also ignoring the policy on personal attacks. Andrewa (talk) 10:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I acknowledge that my second AFD was "ill-considered" as it was not the best way to resolve our dispute. But that does not make my argument any less valid. And shall I remind you that there was near-consensus in the first AFD that this content fork article is needless? Imad marie (talk) 10:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Your so-called argument is a personal attack. In terms of Wikipedia policies it has no validity whatsoever, rather it is a simple waste of our time just like the second AfD. Disagree that the first AfD reached any near consensus in support of this particular claim, as your rewording here is significant. But even if it had, there's been no subsequent consensus reached despite much discussion on the issue. Trying to go back to that previous (failed) attempt is another simple waste of time. Andrewa (talk) 17:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I imagine that if I were Palestinian, I would fight doubly hard to make sure that this article would remain on Wikipedia. Why should only the sufferings of the Palestinian people only be included on Wikipedia? Celebrations ought to be included as well, don't you think? --GHcool (talk) 17:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The suffering of other people is not something for you to make fun of. Imad marie (talk) 17:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I think the two of you should back off a bit. Imad is correct to be unhappy with the comparison and Ghcool is correct to be unhappy with the beating of a single point to death. Btw, Imad, comments like these[10] are unhelpful either. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The term Celebration is both POV and dubious. This article documents positive views on the attack. On what basis positive view is labeled as "celebration"? For example, Saddam Hussein had a positive view on the attack or at least he supported the rationale behind the attack. But "celebration" means social gathering or observance of feast day. Saddam Hussein did not arrange social gathering after the attack, hence he did not celebrate it, but supported it. Thus mention of Saddam Hussein under the title celebration is factually inaccurate. Wikipedia is supposed to give all possible viewpoints. There are different views on the 9/11 attack. The article International reactions to the September 11, 2001 attacks documents negative views, which is the mainstream view. Those who criticized the attack had negative view and those who expressed support had positive view, simple. If the two articles can be merged under a single title Views on the September 11, 2001 attacks, it will help to ensure the NPOV approach. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

OK I know we're going over old ground here, but no-one has ever really explained why these events need a whole article to themselves, separate from the mainstream and more general reaction documented elsewhere. They've just claimed that they need one. I don't think there's any equivalent article to this one anywhere on Wikipedia. And no, "the community" did not reject proposals to move or merge the information: one or two partisan editors, as well as a couple who aren't familiar with the issues here, simply dived in to say "Keep", which then means the closing admin - probably correctly under Wikipedia policy, which allows effective acts of veto - says there was no consensus to merge. Judging by the comments of one editor above on this talk page, the reasons as to why they want these one or two events highlighted separately is fairly obvious. --Nickhh (talk) 19:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't making fun of other people's suffering, but I admit, that I my comment could be considered disrespectful. On the other hand, I would never celebrate other people's suffering. --GHcool (talk) 19:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

IMO that last comment is exactly the sort of thing to avoid on talk pages. Andrewa (talk) 00:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

(Sigh) It has been explained at great length. The explanations have not satisfied you, and it seems unlikely that any ever will. The community did reject the proposals, that's what the process is designed to determine. To dismiss the contributions of others because you have unilaterally decided that they (we) are partisan editors or aren't familiar with the issues is another personal attack. Let's move on. Andrewa (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Well actually no, it hasn't. Most editors who wanted to keep the separate article just kind of said "well that's what I want" or "I like this article", and failed to address the point that the material was covered elsewhere and that Wikipedia doesn't have similar standalone pages for other "celebrations" of notorious events. Most used some variation of "Keep - these events happened and were reported" (as if Wikipedia were some sort of newspaper, which needs articles on each single reported event that's ever happened) or "Keep - this is an attempt to bury or censor information" (even though most of the material was being kept, and it was actually a question of whether these events should be unduly highlighted here in a way that other comparable ones have not been). One editor even said that the demonstrations were a spur to US politicians uniting behind the war on terrorism. I apologise btw if my drawing rational conclusions from these comments constitutes a personal attack. Anyway I've accepted that it's probably a lost cause to think in the light of such comments, anything here will change. So yes, let's move on. --Nickhh (talk) 10:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The only rationales that I found for having this separate article, both provided by Andrewa:

• These couple of demonstrations provided a scandal that focussed and polarised US politics, with both parties supporting the War on Terrorism.
• separate articles allow some people to use their watchlists more effectively.

To me both of those arguments are not valid. It seems that some editors are playing the "no consensus" game. Imad marie (talk) 10:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, so there's been a lot of noise on the subject. It would be surprising, given the nature of the topic, if this were not so. Firstly, many of us feel that Wikipedia has a great deal of influence in the world. Secondly, highlighting or focussing on this particular aspect of 9/11 (in whatever way) serves a particular political cause, and conversely, anything that diminishes its prominence serves the opposing cause. And so Wikipedia is in the middle, trying to present the information in whatever way is most, well, informative.

At the risk of repeating myself, ISTM that this is a particularly notable aspect of the whole business. In some ways, it's the saddest and most challenging note of the whole sad story of 9/11. So even if the article was to be merged, deleted, or whatever else is proposed, it will be recreated regularly, and some (not all) of these recreations will be for the best possible reason: People want to read about it, and Wikipedia is there to allow them to do this.

On the other hand, what's the argument for merging or deletion? Repeatedly, we are told that the coverage would be less biased if this particular article did not exist. That's a valid argument IMO, but a very weak one.

There's plenty of material for a separate article, this material is noteworthy, accurate and verifiable, and people want to read it. In the face of that, we should be very cautious about removing the article. Allegations of bias are inevitable, both ways. So I tried to step back, and say, OK, politics aside, what else is going on here?

My suggestion is, concentrate on the quality of the article. Easier said than done perhaps. What was really going on? What happened? How did people react? Once I started to ask these questions, the topic became so interesting that I really wondered how anyone with Wikipedia's goals at heart could want to remove the article. I still do. Andrewa (talk) 17:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for providing a rationale. And no, you are not repeating yourself.

I realize that those celebrations (rightfully) made many people feel bad about it, but we need put our feelings aside and think about encyclopedic values and rules, and the rule is: we can't have a separate article for each reaction. We need to be fair, what applies here applies there, and per Nickhh's argument, we don't have another article like this elsewhere in wikipedia, we don't have an article about celebrations of King David hotel bombing, the Shehadeh killing, Cave of the Patriarchs massacre... So concentrating on those celebrations and ignoring all the condemnations from the Palestinian leadership and the Muslim world is just not neutral, and unfair. Imad marie (talk) 07:03, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

To which rule do you refer? The rules are Wikipedia official policy. If there were sufficient material to create an article on these other events, and if someone cared to write it, then we should welcome it. Why not? Andrewa (talk) 09:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Because we can't create a separate article for every event that is covered by the media, and because we are concentrating here on one side of the story without showing other sides.

The rules I was referring to are WP:NPOV and WP:CFORK.

And you haven't answered my question, do you think it's rightful for me to go create separate articles about celebrations of King David hotel bombing, Cave of the Patriarchs massacre... ? Imad marie (talk) 10:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

If you believe there's enough material to justify an article, go ahead, be WP:BOLD. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 11:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Support this. But also bear in mind WP:POINT. If you don't believe that these articles should exist, then creating them to serve as a straw man won't achieve anything, as if they're subsequently merged or deleted, it won't prove anything. Andrewa (talk) 22:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I hope I have now answered your question. Now how about mine... is this rule one that exists, or just one that you think should be proposed? Suggest you read WP:PAPER before getting too excited about it. Andrewa (talk) 22:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggested edit

Suggested new version

The following is a suggested replacement to current version of "Palestinian reactions" subsection of the article. (written by Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC))

Discussion can be made here.

Palestinian reactions

Initial response

The Palestinian Authority, which had immediately condemned the September 11th attacks, moved to censor further reports of public celebrations, with Palestinian information minister Yasser Abed Rabbo stating that "a few kids" were unrepresentative of the Palestinian people.

Palestinian police were reportedly trying to prevent demonstrations of joy, with limited success with the Jerusalem Post reporting that Palestinians forcibly confined foreign journalists to a Nablus hotel on September 11 evening, guarded by armed Palestinians while festivities took place in the streets outside.¹² Palestinian Authority officials and Tanzim militia members issued threats and warnings to reporters adding that they "would be held responsible if the footage was shown", adding death threats.¹ Ahmed Abdel Rahman, Arafat's Cabinet secretary, said the Palestinian Authority could not "guarantee the life" of an Associated Press cameraman if footage he filmed of post-9/11 celebrations was broadcast.

As a result AP decided not to release a tape reportedly showing Palestinian policemen celebrating and shooting into the air, in addition to civilians dancing.¹ AP and Reuters followed by limiting their coverage to a small number of still pictures and videotapes¹ with Rahman's statement prompting a formal protest from the AP bureau chief, Dan Perry.³⁴

The Palestinian media promptly condemned the celebrations that were televised around the world as unrepresentative of mainstream Palestinian public opinion, suggesting that the imagery was being exploited to vilify the Palestinian people. The lead editorial in Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (PA official paper), for example, wrote:

Those ignorant few who did that [celebrate] do not represent our public opinion. In fact, such ignorant behavior might have happened in other parts of the world, but unfortunately the cameras did not reach them..." ⁵

This opinion was joined by Hanan Ashrawi, who condemned the attacks as an "unconscionable... blow to humanity as a whole."⁶ Ashrawi characterized the attacks as "evil": "We feel your pain, we feel your sorrow, we will do everything we can to help".⁶

In the week after the attacks, Yasser Arafat appeared on television, purportedly donating blood in a symbolic gesture, to the victims of the attacks,⁷ Arafat's gesture was criticized by The Weekly Standard as staged and insincere.⁸ also urging Palestinian schoolchildren in the West Bank and Gaza to take to the streets in demonstrations supporting the US. The move, was seen by the media as a "spin control" attempt the PA when placed in the context of rising reports about foreign correspondents being forbidden from covering Palestinian celebrations.¹

Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin asserted that the attacks were "a result of injustice the U.S practices against the weak".⁶

Later responses

In early October 2001, following the US invasion of Afghanistan, a Palestinian protest in support of Bin Laden took place in the Gaza Strip. The protest, in which 2,000 Palestinians were reportedly participating, took an extraordinary turn when Yasir Arafat's police force fired on demonstrators, killing at least two people, including a 13-year-old boy. An event interpreted by the New York Times as a sign of "how much Mr. Arafat wanted to avoid any echo of Palestinian celebrations right after the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington."¹⁰

Discussion/Objections/Suggestions

• Changes focus mostly on Journalistic approach by the PA which I felt were missing a lot of input. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

"The Palestinian Authority, which had immediately condemned the September 11th attacks, moved to..." Perhaps this needs to be expanded upon first. For example, what exactly did the Palestinian Authority have to say? ~ smb 16:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Smb,

There's a number of PA comments in there, I may expand on your suggestion later. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 06:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you name this article: "anti-Palestinian propaganda"? I object to your suggestion, the protest against Afghanistan war, or the protest supporting Osama, has nothing to do with "Celebrations of the September 11, 2001 attacks". Imad marie (talk) 12:26, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Imad marie,

Your reaction is really uncivil and a borderline personal attack. You're suggesting I want to turn the article into a propaganda sounding board while it was the media which made a clear connection that the shooting in Gaza was related to the celebrations, not me.

We can't agree on everything, but the WP:BATTLE atmosphere you've been cultivating[11] ever since Nickhh gave you[12] and a couple others[13] "battleground" suggestions/motivations, has to stop. I understand that it is important to you that wikipedia will present Palestinian related material with neutrality, but I request that you please review WP:BATTLE, WP:CIV, and also Erosion_of_critical_thinking.

On topic, to answer your concerns, a clear connection that the shooting in Gaza was related to the celebrations was made by the media, and support in Osama Bin Laden is certainly not an unrelated issue also. I hope this answers your concern regarding lack of connection, I disagree with your 'article title' related argument completely - the article discusses contentious issue which, among others, relates to Palestinian Authority actions just as other articles who discuss Israeli contentious activity exist also.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 06:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC) a bit more, 06:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I independently came here to think that this article serves as a propaganda, this opinion was not influenced by any other editor, and the fact that a small group of editors here have managed to impose their will on a larger group of other editors strengthen this opinion.

On topic, this article is about celebrations, we don't need to put details on the PA initial and later responses (even if it is covered by the media), and nothing in the article title suggests that this article is about "Palestinians", so we should not include every single detail about the PA reaction, or Palestinian celebrations. Imad marie (talk) 07:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The Palestinian Authority reaction to the Palestinian celebrations is definately what I would consider relevent and encyclopedic material. However, I'm open to hear a policy/source based argument on why you believe it is not.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

p.s. due to it's offtopic nature, I replied to the WP:OWN charge on your talk page. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The policy I'm referring to is WP:UNDUE. The title of this article suggests that it is about celebrations that supposingly occured in different countries of the world. So detailing the Palestinian celebrations, and then the PA immediate response, and then the PA later response, is UNDUE. Imad marie (talk) 08:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Surely it's the other way around? If the title were to include the word "Palestinians" then that would imply (weakly) that there were celebrations by other groups, just as if the article at London were moved to London, England that would (weakly) imply that there was another London. Andrewa (talk) 10:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, nothing in the title suggests that the article is about Palestinians, and that's why its undue to detail the celebrations/initial response/later response to that extent. Imad marie (talk) 10:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

So, do you agree that it's the other way around as I suggested? Andrewa (talk) 14:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I disagree. But our disagreement has nothing to do my undue argument. Imad marie (talk) 05:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Question: What part of Undue are you citing? we have a reliable source making a clear connection for the events. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 05:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Do not make changes before getting consensus.

This article is about celebrations, your suggested version, has a response section (initial and later) larger than the celebration section. What you are doing here is focusing on the PA reaction when you should be focusing on the celebrations itself. Imad marie (talk) 05:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't quite break the PA reaction for the celebrations into a separate article and the reactions are always more interesting than the event in itself. Can you please cite the policy section for your statement that this should not be part of the article? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 05:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Here is a sample aftermath section for your inspection: September_11,_2001_attacks#Aftermath. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 05:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

My argument is clear, you are inserting a whole section with its details (support of Osama, killing of a 13-year-old boy ...) for a small relation cited by NYTime: "avoid any echo of Palestinian celebrations", the details of the section you inserted are of no connection to the article title, and this is undue.

Second, you are giving too much focus on the PA reaction, more than you are giving for the celebrations itself. Again, undue. Imad marie (talk) 05:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm OK with inserting a small sentence like: "the PA repelled further related protests as Arafat wanted to avoid any echo of the celebrations". I object to inserting a whole new section with its details because I think that would be WP:UNDUE and WP:SYNTH. Imad marie (talk) 06:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If I understand your comment correctly, you are saying that the PA use of firepower or any details from what Palestinians were doing in support of Bin Laden is a synthesis of sources? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

(reset) Three point:

1. The NYTimes article you referenced makes a tiny relation to the celebrations, you use the small sentence that makes the relation to insert a whole new section with details that are hardly relevant to the article to advance a position, this is WP:SYNTH.
2. Nothing in the article title suggests that it is merely about the Palestinians. I see no reason that we should go into that detail about the PA reaction (initial and later responses). Like I said before, I'm OK with inserting a small sentence about the later reaction, but inserting a whole new section is WP:UNDUE.
3. The author of the NYTimes article gives another possibility for the motive of the PA reaction: "Also, he apparently did not want to be seen as backing what could prove to be the wrong horse in Mr. bin Laden". Are you going to present this point too? to show all sides of the story.

Imad marie (talk) 07:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify the dispute and allow us to move forward. Is your only objection with the material lyes in the final paragraph? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 14:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the "Later responses" section. Imad marie (talk) 19:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Eyewitnesses

For the sake of neutrality, and as agreed here, I will remove any celebrations in the article that were reported by eyewitnesses. Imad marie (talk) 10:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Imad marie,

I have to be frank here that I see no agreement for your content removal. To me it seems like a reaction to the previous material, which you hoped on writing in, being noted as fringe.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

This is pathetic. Numerous reliable sources state that Israelis were celebrating in Jersey, but the information is removed, supposedly because there weren't enough sources, or the sources were allegedly "fuzzy" in the perception of Jaakobou et al. Now Jaakobou turns around and re-inserts information from only one source... and accuses others of disrupting Wikipedia, while he's at it. <eleland/talkedits> 13:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The removal of this material was supported only by a claim of agreement that is patently false. There was no agreement. Whether or not there is any substance to your other claims, Jaakobou is correct to revert in this particular instance.

There's a lot in the section to which Imad marie linked above. Are there any particular arguments that you feel should be revisited? Andrewa (talk) 14:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Please don't do that. There was no agreement to it. Andrewa (talk) 14:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Well you are invited to reach an agreement below. Imad marie (talk) 05:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

That seems to be a different issue, and less contentious. Andrewa (talk) 07:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC) Perhaps I was being too generous... from your comments below, it appears that this particular edit was a mere disruption. Andrewa (talk) 01:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Celebrations reported by eyewitnesses

Palestinians were not the only to celebrate the attacks, there are the Israelis and chinese. We should agree here if celebrations reported by eyewitnesses should be included here. Imad marie (talk) 05:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The New York Times article says that five Israeli citizens were arrested after being reported celebrating the attack. Of course this doesn't mean they were Jews; About 75% of Israeli citizens are Jews. If you feel this incident should be included then I certainly have no objection, but it's entirely possible that these five men were Palestinians, so it doesn't change the article all that much, unless we can find more information on the incident.

The San Francisco Chronicle article says that students in China lit fireworks to celebrate the destruction of the twin towers. It's not specific about where and when, but it implies that this has been reported in more detail elsewhere. I think you should look for those other reports. But it's a very interesting and relevant article, and the information should IMO be included in our article. Andrewa (talk) 07:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou, since you were the one to object to including celebrations reported by eyewitnesses, I hope you can add your opinion here. Imad marie (talk) 20:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It would be far better if you found other reports of the Chinese celebrations that the SFC article you quote clearly implies exist, rather than inviting others to repeat arguments they have already presumably given. Or, what specifically did Jaakobou say that you interpret as opposing the inclusion of this material? Was it perhaps more the way it was phrased rather than the information itself? For example, to say as you did above that the NYT article is about an Israeli celebration is very misleading. It would be considered clever politics by some I guess, but it's exactly the sort of thing we don't want in the article. Andrewa (talk) 01:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

No, before going for the hustle and search for reports for the Chinese celebrations, we need to agree here: Are we going to include celebrations reported by eyewitnesses? this article must be consistent, one rule should apply for all.

Jaakobou previously objected to the inclusion of celebrations reported by eyewitnesses, on the claim that they are fringe theories. Now we should agree on a unified rule, for all. Imad marie (talk) 05:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The story Imad marie refers to referencing the alleged Israelis celebrating doesn't really go into much detail. It is mentioned at the very end of a three-page story and the person quoted doesn't even make it clear whether he knows for sure that the people celebrating were Israelis. Perhaps if there's some kind of follow-up story to this one that goes into more detail, it might be interesting to look at, but it would be pretty difficult to base anything conclusive off of this shady article without crossing the line into WP:Undue weight and even WP:NOR. As for Imad marie's question regarding eyewitnesses, I think WP:V is very clear on this issue. --GHcool (talk) 05:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue the 5 Israelis story, as this has been discussed in length before. I'm making a simple question: should we include celebrations reported by eyewitnesses? Your answer is being vague, is it a yes or no? and what are you referring to in WP:V that is "clear on this issue"?! Imad marie (talk) 05:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree that the story of the five Israeli citizens, of unknown ethnic background, adds little. It could be phrased so as to mislead, as Imad marie demonstrated above, but I assume we won't do that in the article. Assuming that, nor does it do any harm IMO. I'd put it in. Andrewa (talk) 06:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you insist on having a rule before acting, perhaps you should raise it at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), and we can all take a break from this particular issue here while it's considered there. I predict rejection as a trivial waste of time, but feel free to have a go. Andrewa (talk) 06:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The Village pump is unnecessary here. And you keep evading the point, if some information has been removed previously from the article on the bases that "reported by eyewitnesses", then all other information reported by eyewitnesses should be removed too, for the sake of neutrality. Please don't evade this point. Imad marie (talk) 07:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The issue depends on what information we have of the issue. There is no connection between the "5 Israelis" urban legend that Israel knew in advance of the attacks, and the Palestinians -- known for not appreciating US foreign policy -- celebrating in Lebanon who appeared on AP photographs as celebrating. I totally agree that other celebrations should be noted... maybe we can find material from al-Qaeda for the article? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You are comparing the motives of the two groups, but I don't see the motives of the celebrations connecting to the article; the "in advance knowledge of the attacks" or "not appreciating US foreign policy" is not significant, what is significant is that they did celebrate. Imad marie (talk) 08:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Imad,

I'm not comparing motives. I'm comparing a fringe theory with an established, Associated Press documented, event.

Cordially, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm... What's the evidence that it's an urban legend? I looked at Snopes and the only really interesting hit I got was this one, which possibly deserves to be referenced in the article. But it's not related to the 5 Israelis. Andrewa (talk) 11:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The "old footage" issue is already registered into the article under "Rebroadcast footage". The other urban legend has a few samples here. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 11:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Good point regarding the Snopes reference, I missed that somehow. But, I didn't find the connection in the link you gave concerning the other urban legend, which was my main point. Andrewa (talk) 12:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Look for "4000" and also for "Mossad", you'll find what urban legend is involved with the 5 Israelis. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, but not an urban legend on this evidence. I agree that one or both of the two incompatible claims reported here about five men (described as Israelis in one report and Jews in the other) may concern the same five men reported in the NYT article, but it's just a conspiracy theory unless there's evidence that it's widely believed. Andrewa (talk) 16:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The reporting of the five Israelis, is a fact. The Israeli advanced knowledge of the attacks, is a conspiracy theory. Imad marie (talk) 08:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a fact that these reports were made, and I think there's a prima facie case for the NYT article being factual, although even here it would be good to have a second source. But the NYT article doesn't say very much, and there is doubt as to reliability of the other sources named so far. Andrewa (talk) 03:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Please check eleland's comment below, he has provided more sources. Imad marie (talk) 05:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The second NYT article should IMO be quoted in the article as it speaks of their nationality not just citizenship. The others are possibly partisan. Andrewa (talk) 15:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That point is very easily answered: Two wrongs don't make a right. I admit I didn't answer it before, simply because I assumed that it went without saying. It is also part of the logic of WP:POINT of course.

The pump is the correct place to discuss policy. Policy is the closest thing Wikipedia has to rules. If you want to set rules, then you'll need to go through the process of setting them. You can't just make them up and expect others to follow them. If you've thought better of it, then agree that the pump is unnecessary. Andrewa (talk) 10:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to set WP rules here.

As you can see here, my opinion was is that we should include celebrations reported by eyewitnesses, an opinion that was rejected by some other editors, so for the sake of neutrality, one standard should be set for this article, either we include celebrations reported by eyewitnesses, or we remove them all. Imad marie (talk) 13:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Imad marie's argument is a false dichotomy. "[E]ither we include celebrations reported by eyewitnesses, or we remove them all" is not a good argument, nor will it serve to make Wikipedia more effective. The answer lies somewhere in the middle: we ought to include certain eyewitness evidence that satisfies WP:V, but not all eyewitness evidence. --GHcool (talk) 16:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

All reported celebrations satisfy WP:V. If you think different, then please explain how, rather than giving vague comments. Imad marie (talk) 08:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Numerous reliable sources report that five Israelis were arrested after acting in a manner that was perceived as celebrating by at least one witness. The Forward reports [14] that the Israeli consulate acknowledges the five men were embracing, but claim it was out of grief rather than jubilation. According to the New York Times, [15] "By some accounts, they seemed to be making light of the tragic situation. [...] The men were taken into custody, with news reports leaving the wide impression that the authorities had detained a group of suspicious men taking pictures or rooting for the terrorists from the New Jersey side of the bridge." According to their own account, they had simply pulled over to ask directions when they were suddenly and arbitrarily arrested. [16]

It is clear that no RS-consensus exists that the men were in fact celebrating. This excludes the possibility of our claiming that they were in fact celebrating. However the fact that witnesses interpreted their actions as celebratory is reported in numerous reliable sources of the highest quality.

Again, I'd like to know why one FOX News report of gunfire in a Palestinian village is supposed to be nice solid and reliable, but not numerous reports from better quality sources including the New York Times, which explicitly references multiple reports and multiple accounts of an Israeli celebration. (Gunfire can mean anything, I recall when Saddam was executed, there were reports of gunfire from Shi'ite areas celebrating his death and gunfire from Sunni areas mourning it...)

I realize that this is a sensitive issue because the "5 Israelis" story has predictably become enmeshed with preposterous antisemitic conspiracy theories. I don't see any need even to mention the barely plausible end of this spectrum, even though it has surfaced in at least one reliable newspaper report, [17] (Sunday Herald) which is that the Israelis were intelligence agents in New York tracking al-Qaeda cells, maybe even with foreknowledge of 9/11. That claim has been made, but it's a very extraordinary claim and the level of support for it doesn't match the claim. However, I see absolutely no justification for excluding information about the Israeli 5 altogether; they existed, they were perceived as celebrating, they were arrested, all of this is verified by reliable sources of the highest calibre. Wikipedia is not here to settle this controversial issue but we should report on the controversy itself.<eleland/talkedits> 18:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I find this claim a bit puzzling... do you really think that every report is verifiable? Andrewa (talk) 15:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The answer is quite simple. This article is about celebrations, meaning actual celebrations, not alleged/percieved celebrations which may not actually have existed. The Isralies existed, but whether or not they actually were celebrating seems to be disputed within the sources you mentioned, and by the Israelies themselves. This differs from the Palestinian example, where it isn't disputed as to whether or not it is actually celebratory. YahelGuhan (talk) 05:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

True, but it doesn't answer my question. Let me put it another way: The claim that All reported celebrations satisfy WP:V seems to be so preposterous that I wonder what Imad marie meant. Surely, it can't mean that we should believe every report? Andrewa (talk) 10:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

My point simply is: "eyewitnesses have reported seeing 5 Israelis behaving strangely, a behaviour in which they interpreted as celebrations", this is a proven fact, regardless of whether the Israelis have actually celebrated, but the reporting of the eyewitness is a fact. Multiple sources cited this, including:

• Haaretz: "in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery" [18].
• NYTimes: "witnesses had reported seeing the men celebrating the attack" [19]
• The Sunday Herald: "Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down." [20]

And there are other sources. The point is, if you are not going to trust the eyewitnesses for their judgments, and call it "fringe theories", then why does this article include the reported celebrations in Ein el-Hilweh, where eyewitnesses interpreted the "gun fires" as celebrations? Imad marie (talk) 10:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The "eye witnesses" in the case of Ein el-Hilweh were Associated Press reporters of Arab descent, not anonymous New Yorkers. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

What difference does it make? please explain. Imad marie (talk) 11:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I honestly don't know how to relate the difference to you. If you believe there is no difference, I don't mind you opening the second issue for WP:FTN like you did with the 5 Israelis. That would be a good way to resolve this dispute with outside input. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You can easily change your opinions and arguments. When I tried to insert the paraghraph about the Israelis in March, you objected to it on the claim that eyewitnesses are not credible enough, and now when I remove the paraghraph about Ein el-Hilweh, you come up with a new argument, something about Arab descents and New Yorkers. Now I ask you again, please explain how it makes a difference... Imad marie (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Imad marie,

Could you please find the diff of the paragraph I removed to jog my memory?

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

<-resetting indenting, in reply to My point simply is above...

OK, I thought it had to be something like that. That fact is a harmless claim; It's also for example true and I imagine verifiable that people report seeing pink elephants from time to time. Just because it's verifiable that they have reported this doesn't justify us in listing a pink subspecies under elephant.

I'm guessing this is the whole issue. I can't see anybody who has opposed the adding of verifiable information to the article, even if as in this case it seems to border on being irrelevant to the article topic, which is celebrations, not reported celebrations. What I and I guess others would object to is to report the speculation from some of these articles as if it were also factual. Andrewa (talk) 01:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

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