Talk:Ernest Hemingway

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Contents

Errors in Hemingway article

There are numerous errors in the history. To cite some: Hemingway was never a star athlete in high school--he played 2nd or 3rd string guard in football and was swim team manager; there's no objective proof he ever rescued anyone after being wounded; he never staunched a wound with cigarette butts--that was a tall tale he told naive high school students on his return; he went to Canada probably less to get away from Prohibition than to get away from his mother, who threw him out of the house; he didn't work on a newspaper in Chicago but for the "Cooperative Commonwealth," a monthly journal; he didn't leave the Toronto "Star" out of boredom but because he couldn't stand his editor, who thought Hemingway too cocky and needing to be taken down a peg; he wrote the first draft of "The Sun Also Rises" in six weeks, but the rewriting, after writing "Torrents of Spring," took several months; etc. Plhays 00:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT SBHarris 00:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

World Record

I have heard that Hemingway once held the world record for having caught the world's heaviest Marlin. Someone could verify this and add it to the article.

where are his pictures?

Can anybody tell why somebody reomved Hemingway's two pictures in this article? in one he was sitting on stairs and in the another he was writing on a table, they were good pictures, please put them back if you have them.


The Spanish Civil War

The Spanish Civil War was horrendous on both sides. Thus, to present the Republican side as merely elected without reference to their own atrocities, distorts the circumstances in which Hemingway found himself and which he tolerated, as did Herbert Matthews,in his news reports. In Hemingway's favor one notes the narrations by the character "Pablo" of the killings of unarmed clergy found in "For Whom the Bell Tolls." Still it is pertinent to distinguish the role of Hemingway as a novelist for whom there is freedom to take a side or a position, from that of Hemingway as a journalist bearing a far greater ethical responsibility to adhere to objectivity. All this helps define Hemingway whose writings even for his times showed far less compassion for his non-US subjects,than his own nationals. One is reminded of his cursory treatment of the murder of smuggled Asians in one of the accounts found in "Islands in the Stream." Perhaps one might even ascribe (as surely somebody has) Hemingway's laconic writing style to a way to try to separate himself from the human subjects he describes, and eventually to himself. This laconic style could be compared to that of the trained thoughts of a Spartan youth going on a mission to murder Helots. As yet I have found no account of a meeting or interaction of Hemingway with Eric Blair George Orwell which might help illuminate this subject. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't you find it tiresome holding historic figures up to current standards? Just how well will you fair when your life is reviewed a hundred years from now? Rklawton 19:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
WW2 was horrendous on both sides, does that mean that there was a moral equivalency between the Axis and the Allies, that we should make excuses for Hitler and in this case Hitler's minion Franco on that basis or that people should have stood idly by and let them triumph? No. It is to the credit of Hemingway and all the other veterans of the "greatest generation" that they stepped up to the plate and did what had to be done in that situation. The world would be far worse off had they abandoned their duty. And of course, the other aspect of it is that Hemingway was a seasoned combat veteran, going back to the Great War, who had developed a hardened and desensitized attitude towards the cruelties of war, that some of his interlocutors may have never come close to seeing in real life even once, much less on a routine basis as soldiers often do.Tom Cod 21:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No I do not. Hemingway is still a man of my time. I remember the executions in la Caba~na in Cuba, and their horror. George Plimpton writes that Hemingway was impervious to their horror, but not so his dining companions. See:

  • Plimpton, George 1977 Shadow box. G.P. Putnam’s Sons. New York. SBN 399119957 pp. 143-149.

These scenes also horrified a large majority of the U.S. public. Thus one can say without exaggeration, that Hemingway's values in this regard were out of step with most in the US at that time. As to Civil War Spain George Orwell, John Dos Passos, and a good number of Hemingway's contemporaries were horrified by the cruelty of what occurred there. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Good points - and those contemporary reactions to Hemingway's work should be included. I hope you're sharpening your pencil! Rklawton 20:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but is that not true of most great conflagrations (and of war generally)? World War II? the American Civil War? there were atrocities on both sides, but ultimately it could and was reasonably concluded that cause of one side (The Union, the Allies) merited support and victory, represented progress and that it was critical for human history that that outcome be effectuated. The genteel equivocation of the gentlemen you mention, in contrast to Hemingway's candidly partisan attitude, in the context of what has aptly been described as the "dress rehearsal of World War II" could reflect a political attitude of conciliating fascism that many of these people had based on their privileged class position (see the "Understanding Rich") and quite frankly it was the abstention of the Allies and much of the liberal intelligentsia on this basis that created the situation where Soviet backed communists were able to gain the undue influence they had to the detriment of the Spanish Republic, which was qualitively different than the Axis sponsored military dictatorship that replaced it.Tom Cod 21:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Rklawton: thank you will do at the first opportunity. El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:33, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Tom: I do not recall reading of killings of clergy in the U.S. Civil War, and in WWI and WWII except by the Soviets and the Nazi. Hmmmm140.211.14.1 20:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

offensive?

Under the section about early criticism, they describe his second wife as "[allegedly having] lesbian affairs after their divorce". While I understand that 'affair' could have different meanings, the connotation is that she comitted adultry. If they were divorced this would not be the case unless she was remarried and that should be noted. Regardless- there is a difference between talking about the discriminate views of the past and talking in a discriminate tone ABOUT the past. I think the language should be clarified in order to be more objective towards this person... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.113.90.150 (talk) 13:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

"Trivia"

While there are pertinent items listed, I find the popular culture and Anecdote sections to be primarily lists of trivia. I can see the popular culture shortened and converted to prose. The anecdote section should be pruned then the remains spread through the article at the appropriate spots. Someone more familiar with the topic would do a better job than I, but I am willing to dive in should no one step up. . . (John User:Jwy talk) 15:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Please Be bold and edit away. Most of what is listed here is not really relevant to the article. I'm no expert on the subject either, but I would be more than happy to help. I'm adding a trivia tag and will be back later to remove some of the more obviously misplaced bits of trivia. Sbacle 16:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I have started to clean up this trivia section by removing a few of the bullet points that are clearly not significant to Hemingway. The information may be better placed in other articles, but does not belong here. I have detailed my reasons below. Please discuss if you have any objections.

  • Seven/Rush album: Hemingway is quoted much to often for us to detail every single occurrence on this page.
  • World of Warcraft/Family Guy episode/Fight Club/The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou/10 Things I Hate About You/Dreamcatcher/"We Didn't Start the Fire"/"Here's to Life"/"Just the Girl"/"Stranger Than Fiction": a passing reference, not of significant importance to the (MMORPG/episode/films/songs) or Hemingway.
  • Celebrity Deathmatch: The show frequently depicts famous figures. The Hemingway depiction is not significant in any way, nor is it particularly accurate.
  • Histeria!: Removed for reasons similar to Celebrity Deathmatch. He was only one of many famous authors depicted in this episode.
  • Pete Wentz's dog: Perhaps this is significant enough to Pete Wentz to be included in the article about him, though I highly doubt it. It certainly doesn't belong here.

This is just a preliminary cleaning to get the ball rolling. Not all of the remaining material belongs in the article, but some of it does and should be integrated into the appropriate sections. Anything that doesn't belong should either be incorporated into an article to which it is relevant, or removed as not notable. Sbacle 15:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I like your reasoning for each of these. Keep up the good work! Rklawton 15:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

JImmy Buffett

Songwriter/singer Jimmy Buffett references Hemmingway in many songs. In one song, he says 'Follow the Equator, like the old articulator.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.188.202.63 (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Corrected intro

The introduction section refered to the Hemingway home in Ketchum as his "hunting lodge." It was in fact his home. His wife Mary continued to live there until her death in 1986. I corrected the mistake. Jonathan S Knowles 01:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of Dates

Hi, I just realized that the article mentions Hemingway moving to Key West, Florida twice, but in two different years. The first occurance is in the "First Novels And Other Early Works section and it states that "In 1928, Hemingway and Pfeiffer moved to Key West, Florida". However, in the section "Key West and the Spanish Civil War" it states that "Hemingway moved in 1931 to Key West, Florida". Please fix this. Tamara Van Diest 19:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Rizla edits (terminology pertaining to Iceberg Theory)

User:Rizla insists on the following wording: Hemingway's distinctive writing style is characterized by economy and understatement. I object to that for the following reasons: (a) Iceberg theory is by my understanding the legacy of Hemingway (so it is totally crazy in my eyes to have a whole article which doesn't mention the term once); (b) furthermore, I would argue that distinctive to, is a bias that should be entirely removed. My suggestion which doesn't remedy the bias is the following, Hemingway's distinctive writing style, detailed in his Iceberg Theory, is characterized by economy and understatement. This has the benefit of at least naming the theory on the page of the creator. For this article to even considered mediocre it must state the Iceberg Theory since his stories seem to often be analyzed to examine his implementation of this. Caveat: I'm not a English major, I just know my professor spoke of it a lot, and I was disturbed to see both the theory and the Hemingway without obvious wiki-links. I also must say to use wikilinks to conceal information seems to be an abuse of the functionality. The justification was style preference. To avoid accusations of an edit war I will revert after 5 days if there is no follow up. EvanCarroll 09:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you here. And to be honest, after reading Iceberg Theory, it's so small that you could merge the whole thing into this article. CarbonX 09:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
First off, Hemingway never called his writing style "iceberg theory," that is something that has been used as a catch all for the passage he wrote in Death in the Afternoon, which is in the wiki article. Hemingway himself never said "I write using Iceberg Theory." It could just as easily be called a Theory of Omission, or the Iceberg Method (and it has been referenced as this by other scholars). Second, people will see where the wiki link goes to if they mouse over it or click on the link. Third, this takes place in the introduction, which should be as concise and compact as possible. One of the challenges the editors have had with this article is the endless clauses and stuttering sentences that made it convoluted. This in my view is a failing of wiki as a whole, as editors would rather just interrupt a sentence with a clause or tack something on the end than rewrite the entire sentence so it is easier to read.
My problem with this is that "Hemingway's distinctive writing style is characterized by economy and understatement" is entirely sufficient to describe his style in the introduction. If people want to know more they can click the wiki link. It is concise and to the point. If you want to change it, go ahead. I've spent a ton of time on this article trying to get it to at least read like it isn't written by a highschooler already. Adding another cumbersome subclause to a sentence about a writing style of economy and understatement is hilariously terrible. Rizla 18:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

A Trivial Request for Enlightenment

The last paragraph in the section "Key West and the Spanish Civil War" includes "kidney trouble from fishing" among a list of Hemingway's ailments during this period. Enquiring minds would like a little elaboration on the possible risks sportsfishing poses to the human kidney. Surely I'm not the only reader who has paused in puzzlement at that phrase.

Douglas Barber (talk) 21:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Diabetes

Diabetes was in the Hemingway family was known as the "Hemingway curse". As well as his father, Ernest and his brother both developed Diabetes. Refer to:

  1. USA Today, 22 Sept 2007.
  2. Diabetes Digest "Famous People & Diabetes"
  3. Wagner-Martin, Linda (2000), A Historical Guide to Ernest Hemingway, ISBN 0195121511  where page 43 describes his condition in August 1947 as including high blood pressure, diabetes, depression and possible haemochromatosis.

I have already added Category:People with diabetes to the page. -- Ashley VH (talk) 23:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"... he married a whore."

If you look under the heading First Novels and Early Works, there is a sentence in the third paragraph that reads: "After Hemingway's return to italy, he married a whore." Why is this here? This is vandalism, right?

Bathurst Street Hunt Club

Can someone write Bathurst Street Hunt Club into this article so that Bathurst Street Hunt Club can stop being a stub? Kingturtle (talk) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean stop being an orphan? --JayHenry (talk) 02:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Section order

Shouldn't the "Family" section come exactly after "Biography" and "Works" and "Adaptations" somewhere higher? SCriBu (talk) 12:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

  • "eh" :
    • {{cite web|url=http://www.ernest.hemingway.com/cuba.htm|title=Homing To The Stream: Ernest Hemingway In Cuba}}
    • [http://www.ernest.hemingway.com/cuba.htm Ernest Hemingway His Life and Works<!-- Bot generated title -->]

DumZiBoT (talk) 16:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

A clean well-lighted place

A critic of; A clean well-lighted place'


The short story, A clean well-lighted place, was first published by Hemingway in 1933 while living in Spain, during a worldwide great depression, and after he fought in the First World War. Ernest Hemingway’s writing is honest, simple, open-ended, and yet still provocative. The reason it is provocative, is not because it is complex or detailed, it is because the details are left to the reader to fill in the absent details. Hemingway leaves much of the detail up to the reader. There are no names of characters, no description of the café, there is nothing more than a simple story that the reader can interpret for himself. This type of writing gives a reader opportunity in many aspects; one could be to see himself. A clean well-lighted place is the essences of a man’s soul. A man’s life can be broken down into three simple phases in life. Each phase represents different point, values, needs, wants, and desires. What this short story really gives the reader is an opportunity to look at their own life. In this simple easy to read short story it seems that Hemmingway has left much of the imagery and description of characters up to the reader. All this emptiness forces the reader to fill the story with their own thoughts and ideas of what and where this story is taking place. The most interesting part of the story is not in the nothingness, although that does play an important part, or who is really saying what lines, rather it is in the three characters of men. Each represents a different point in one man’s life. Hemingway is giving the reader a chance to look at his own life in retrospect before he regrets what it may become one-day. The reader is given a young impatient waiter, an older waiter, and an eighty year old man with lots of money. This is the life cycle of a man’s life. The young waiter represents the first stage in a man’s life. Young men are more often impatient and unaffectionate of the world around them. They can be sloppy and immature many times. They care more about their wants and needs then the rest. This is seen twice once when the young man says about the old man; he has no regard for those who must work. The other time is when the young waiter is pouring the brandy and slopped it all over the place spilling it. The young man assumes everyone should be considerate of him, but does not care about how he treats others. The young waiter thinks he is more important. When many young Americans went to Europe to fight in the First World War they saw it as a glorious task and they were invincible. What they were doing was more important in their own eyes. After the war many of them had changed in ways they could not have anticipated. The older waiter represents the second and longest stage in a man’s life. A young man ceases to be young once he understands that there is more to his world then just his ideals. That he is not always right and controls nothing more than the time he spends in this world. This only happens when a man’s life is altered by forces stronger than his own, just as Hemingway’s was when he was injured in Italy. The older waiter is more understanding of the old man staying to drink and enjoy his life. He is in no rush because he has a greater understanding of life. This is obvious when the older waiter asks the younger waiter, why didn’t you let him stay and drink. Despite anything else what is important is that nothing else matters except respect of each other. This is the cardinal rule that the older waiter has come to understand. The older waiter has nothing left in life to prove he does not need to rush home or waste an hour doing something else he does not really need to do. All he has left to do in his life is his job, simple and easy. One day both of the waiters will become the old man. The old man represents the final stage in a man’s life. He represents the point that a man reaches when he has done all he can and has seen all he wants. The old man wants nothing more than to leave the world only to be rescued by his loved ones. The old man is clean and dignified despite the treatment of the young waiter he is tempered and only wishes to drink more. The old man has the young waiter fill his brandy glass telling the waiter a little more; the glass is the symbol for life. The glass is filled and overflows with brandy. The old man is telling the reader his life is full. It is not half empty or half full but fulfilled. When the young waiter refuses to serve the old man anymore the old man leaves without becoming angry or upset, showing the young waiter that nothing more than integrity and respect matter. The young waiter shows how selfish he is to the reader. Hemingway is depicting one man’s life through the three men in the story. Each has something to give but nothing to lose; each of the men is telling the reader about their own life depending on what point they are at in their life cycle. Each man represents a stage in a man’s life; one of youth with the whole world before him, another who has lived long enough to know nothing else matters than how you treat others, and the last one is the old man who has lived his life ready to leave this world with dignity. The openness of this story allows the reader to place himself in each man in the story at his own local café, pub, bar, or bodega. This opportunity gives the reader the chance not to make the same mistakes that lead to a lonely life. The young waiter is so selfish eventually he will lose his wife becoming the older waiter because it is too late for him to reconcile and finally becoming the old man in the café waiting for death to take him. This leaves the reader with an understanding that in life all anyone has is a small window in time, and in that window is an opportunity. What a person does with a given opportunity is up to them. That is what Hemmingway is telling the reader and the proof is in one simple question, what is an hour?

Needs a rewrite also

Understanding Hemingway

Throughout Hemingway’s work there are reoccurring themes that revolve around life. It is this reoccurring theme that dominates his work and it is what makes it so important in day’s life. This theme is also what makes Hemingway’s work ageless. The agelessness of his writing makes it easy for any person from any generation to slip themselves inside the story. Because the stories leave out in-depth detail about individual and scenery one could place themselves as any character as well. What Hemingway’s is telling his audience is about life, just as other critics, David Daiches did in 1941 and Bern Oldsey did in 1963, have stated.

Hemingway’s writing is simple and allows the audience to follow it and to fill in the details to fit the reader so that way they feel they are in the story. The structure of the sentences is calming and easy flowing, giving the reader the feel that they need to continue on the story.

A Clean Well Lighted-Place, The Snows of Kilimanjaro, and The Old man and The Sea are perfect examples of Hemingway’s lean yet complex work. Each one presents the audience with unique characters. All are men either searching out something or coming to grips with a part of their life coming to an end. A clean well lighted place gives the reader three men each at different stages of life. The young waiter is brazen and cares for no one except what he wants. The older waiter is understanding and shows compassion for others. The old man in the story has lived his life and accomplished everything he wants in life. Each of these men can be seen as the different stages of life in one man’s life. But, they can also be seen as something more. The young waiter is the man in Kilimanjaro who is injured by his own fault. Because he cared for no one else, not even his wife who loves him so dearly, he loses everything. It is in the last moments in his life that he realizes what truly matters. The older waiter is the old man in The Old man and The Sea. He is the old man because he understood what is important to life and realizes that life is a struggle and in life man must look beyond today and always push forward. The old man is a mentor to a young boy to teach him that humans cannot hesitate. The audience is able to see themselves as the boy since in a way they all being mentored by the old man and Hemingway. From the trials and tribulations that Hemingway went through in life he is attempting through his writings to warn men of the faults and vices and focused of the virtues in life. The Old Man and the Sea tells the reader that even in defeat there is some sort of victory. It is what a man makes out of life that determines what happens in his own life. Simply said combine all the works the main theme is that in life there are more important things then war, victory, self-interest, momentary pleasures. It’s the long term part of man’s life that is important. At any given moment it could all be swept away and in that everything that was thought to be important is gone and all that is left is what was real to everyone. The reader must ask themselves a question about life, their actions, and Ultimately each one of use will face the same fate with death. Not one person will ever know for sure when they will die. All Hemingway was telling the world is, do not take this life for granted. Enjoy it for what you have and when the opportunity presents itself be ready to act just as the old man did when he lowered his six lines in the sea to create his own luck. When humans think of life we all attempt to quantify it with either a cup half full or climbing a mountain or even attempting to catch the big fish to prove we are still worthy to ourselves and the world. In that all readers can gain the respect that Hemingway deserves for all his work. That is why he published many of his short stories together in a single book called, The Fifth Column and the First Forty-Nine Stories. Hemingway’s experiences throughout his life gave him a more understanding of humanity and life and published the stories with the hope that others would see the truth about their own life and not to make the mistakes of the previous generations. It is the hope of every generation that the next one will be better than the previous one and Hemingway shows the world the truth about humanity instead of sugar coating it. At the end the audience interprets the stories their own way, this interpretation leads one to conclude that maybe there is more to the story then just what Hemingway was writing and that there are deeper meanings for everyone depending on their point in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hemingway:_The_Collected_Stories

one more

Ernest Hemingway’s legacy

Key West celebrates Hemingway

Ernest Hemingway spent ten years of his life living on the Key West Island. While there he spent his time writing some of the greatest classics, which include “The Snows of Kilimanjaro”. He spent much of his time, while living in Key West, at his favorite watering hole Sloppy Joes’ bar. Each year Key West hold’s a celebration in honor of Ernest Hemingway, named Hemingway days festival. Throughout the celebration members of the community come together to honor one of the greatest writers in American history, in various ways, the celebration last over a few days culminating in a look-alike contest at Sloppy Joes. During the Hemingway days, there is a short story contest fishing contest, along with readings from authors. The 2008 celebration included some members from Hemingway’s family, his grandson Edward Hemingway and granddaughter Lorain Hemingway. His grandson is a writer and illustrator and used the celebrations to showcase his new children’s book. Edward said while at the festival “I imagine my grandfather would get a kick out of the festival. The spirit of his life is here in Key West.’’ http://www.miamiherald.com/577/story/611618.html

Images

Please don't add pictures of dummies to an article about one of the greatest writers of the 20th century...add another photo if necessary - but keep it real. Thanks..Modernist (talk) 21:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Ernest Hemingway/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Notified: WP:WPBIO, WP:ILLINOIS, WP:CHICAGO, JayHenry, Alcmaeonid, Rizla.
Belatedly notified: Other editors with at least 25 edits (Rklawton, Geeman, Stephen Burnett, DanielNuyu, Fabricationary, and Kbh3rd)

This article does not seem to have ever been properly assessed at WP:GAC according to its talk history. It is currently undercited and has several {{fact}} tags. I would rate it C-Class in its current state.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I've just reverted obvious vandalism on this article. I agree it's a complete mess. I'd like to someday overhaul it, but it's a massive project. I am not opposed to its removal as GA. --JayHenry (talk) 12:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for spending some time with the article. Obviously, your familiarity with the article enables you to quickly determine what was vandalism and what was deficient editorial work. Correcting either is helpful.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that this article is a "complete mess." That's overstating things quite a bit. The article has chronic instability issues stemming from near constant editing. It is a big target especially for new editors. To bring it up to speed would require some agressive editing and then the establishment of near constant vigilance by a group of concerned editors.~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 20:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. By "complete mess" I mean that I think it would take more time than GA reviews typically last to get it fixed. The referencing for much of this article is very problematic. Some of that stuff about Castro is cited to completely random blogs. Details of his mental health are cited to the trivia section of an IMDB entry. I think it would take weeks of work, with several academic Hemingway sources, to get this article back up to snuff. The things that we didn't add ourselves we'll want to go back and check that the reference actually supports the material. I've removed a lot of crazy stuff from this article over the years, and I'm sure that much more slipped through. It is a project I'd be interested in though. I have a Cambridge Companion to Hemingway and a biography of him as well. --JayHenry (talk) 23:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Good. What would you say to a plan of setting up an informal ad-hoc editing group to really go after this article and bring it up to code? Say with a one month completion target date? We could begin by creating a bibliography of sanctioned academic works. I can order up some books via ILL. Later on we could talk about oversight.~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 18:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Are you two making progress on this? It looks to me like a lot of rvvs in the history, but not much progress toward retaining WP:GA.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

True, this is a high profile article - as are several other articles common to school curricula. I don't have GA-specific experience for high profile articles. What approach has succeeded in the past? My gut reaction is to generate a good bibliography (as per Alcmaeonid's suggestion) and to strip out absolutely everything that doesn't conform. We can build up from there. However, I'm open to any collegial process with a modicum of consensus. Rklawton (talk) 21:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd really love to be involved in this ad hoc group, but won't be able to participate until September. (I didn't see Alcmaeonid's earlier comment about it.) One month wouldn't be a timeline in which I could participate, but if the project waits until September I'd be more than happy to make this my main project on Wiki because I agree it's such an important article. --JayHenry (talk) 22:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Ditto. Big projects 'tween now and then. Rklawton (talk) 02:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Then I'll check back next month. Meanwhile I'll begin to draft a biblio. Is this a page where work can begin or should we create a sandbox somewhere? Under the article talk-page like Talk:Ernest Hemingway/draft or something similar? Not sure of the wiki-protocol on this. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 13:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is being delisted at WP:GA. In the five weeks since this was listed as a WP:GAR nominee almost none of the major problems have been addressed. In addition, it has become the subject of edit warring and has {{sprotected}}{{pp-move|small=yes}} at the top of the source code for the page.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:28, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Oops. That is IP vandalism and not content-dispute related edit warring. Nonetheless the major problems are unresolved.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Atheist/Catholic

I alway find myself in this article and one of the categories at the bottom disappeared (Catholics) and a new one appear (Atheist). I don't make any assertions, but the article doesn't mention "atheism" as it does "Catholic." Maybe someone can source the atheism comment. 66.82.9.59 (talk) 00:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Delisted as GA?

If this is true, why does it still say on the front page of the article that it is a Good Article? —Mattisse (Talk) 23:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

It was delisted as a result of this discussion: Talk:Ernest_Hemingway#Ernest_Hemingway_GA_Reassessment. This only happened a few days ago. What do you mean by "the front page"? At WP:GA it is listed as a recently delisted article. Perhaps someone just forgot to update somewhere that needs to be updated? --JayHenry (talk) 23:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
If you look at the actual article, Ernest Hemingway, it says right under the title: "A good article from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. A former featured article." I know from passing articles for GA, that as soon as I pass an article, the article (on the article page) immediately says "A good article from Wikipedia". Therefore, there is something in the code for this article, Ernest Hemingway, that records it as currently a GA. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Addendum: In the case of passing a GA, the change comes from recording the change on the talk page {{GA|~~~~~|topic=x|page=n}}. However, I cannot find that code on the talk page of this article. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I think you might have something in your monobook that displays that because I can't see it. I noticed that Hemingway was still listed as a Good Article in the Version 0.5 template. I switched it to B-class. Did that fix it for your setup? That's the only guess I've got! --JayHenry (talk) 01:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Whatever you just did fixed it. It now shows up as a B-class article. I do have something in my monobook (or somewhere - perhaps under Gadgets under Preferences) that does automatically show the article class. Anyway, you fixed it, so thanks! —Mattisse (Talk) 01:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Meeting with Joyce

I don't remember the passage from A Moveable Feast where EH meets and talks with James Joyce. I don't think they ever met, but from memory, I think it was EH that admired the older writer from afar, as described in the scene when EH sees Mr. Joyce eating in a fancy restaurant with his family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.125.239.235 (talk) 23:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Restoration

During the recent Good Article Review, a number of editors expressed interest in a collaborative effort to rebuild this article to GA and eventually FA standard. Some thoughts:

  • I think it might actually be easiest to approach this as almost a complete overhaul. We can build off the sources listed when they seem like quality material, but a lot of the sources are a bit sketchy.
  • Some good Featured Articles on literary giants to think of as templates: Chinua Achebe, Honoré de Balzac, William Shakespeare, Mary Shelley, Emily Dickinson.
  • This will be an especially challenging project because Hemingway had an interesting life, was a prolific author, and is an extremely important figure (which means the standards from the FAC community shoot through the roof). And the article is already extremely long.
  • One shortening idea would be to spin Ernest_Hemingway#Works into its own sub-article titled "Bibliography of Ernest Hemingway", and we should see if we can make that an FL!
  • I think we can just use the talk page to share thoughts as we work.
  • I've started a subsection below that lists the sources I have on my shelf. It's just three books, but the Cambridge Companion has lots of great essays. I have Hem's well-known novels, and I also have some biographies of F. Scott Fitzgerald that might be helpful. If anybody else wants to add sources that they have, it'd be a good start for seeing how many more books we might have to track down.

Any other thoughts welcome. --JayHenry (talk) 04:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Bibliography

  • Baker, Carlos (1969). Ernest Hemingway; a Life Story. New York: Scribner. ISBN 0684147408. 
  • Brasch, James D. (July, 1986). "Hemingway's Doctor: José Luis Herrera Sotolongo Remembers Ernest Hemingway". Journal of Modern Literature (Indiana University Press) 13 (2): 185-210, http://www.jstor.org/stable/3831491. 
  • Donaldson, Scott (1996), "Introduction: Hemingway and fame", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Dewberry, Elizabeth (1996), "Hemingway's journalism and the realist dilemma", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Smith, Paul (1996), "1924: Hemingway's luggage and the miraculous year", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Strychacz, Thomas (1996), "In Our Time, out of season", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Nagel, James (1996), "Brett and the other women in The Sun Also Rises", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Reynolds, Michael (1996), "A Farewell to Arms: Doctors in the house of love", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Fleming, Robert E. (1996), "Hemingway's late fiction: Breaking new ground", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Kinnamon, Keneth (1996), "Hemingway and politics", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Sanderson, Rena (1996), "Hemingway and gender history", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Kennedy, J. Gerald (1996), "Hemingway, Hadley, and Paris: The persistence of desire", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Josephs, Allen (1996), "Hemingway's Spanish sensibility", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Sylvester, Bickford (1996), "The Cuban context of The Old Man and the Sea", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Beegel, Susan F. (1996), "Conclusion: The critical reputation of Ernest Hemingway", in Donaldson, Scott, The Cambridge Companion to Ernest Hemingway, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-45574-X 
  • Reynolds, Michael (1986), The Young Hemingway, New York: Basil Blackwell, ISBN 0631147861 
  • Hemingway, Ernest (1985), White, William, ed., Dateline: Toronto, New York, ISBN 0684185156 
  • Hotchner, A. E. (2005). Papa Hemingway: A Personal Memoir, Da Capo Press. ISBN 0306814277. 

"World War II and after"

As for this passage of the article, one should re-read Hemingway's novel Across the River and into the Trees, where some of the experiences of the author during the liberation of Paris and during the cruel battle of the Hurtgen forest may have entered the memories of the hero of the novel, a colonel Cantwell. - Regards! User 87.160.79.8 (talk) 14:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

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