Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Friedrich Nietzsche article.
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November 1, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted
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To-do list for Friedrich Nietzsche:  · history · watch · refresh
  • Perhaps separate and add material on Nietzsche's philological work: e.g., Philology of Friedrich Nietzsche.
  • Assemble secondary sources: no original research, among other policies and guidelines:
    • Remove POV; i.e., what Nietzsche's position is, on many topics, is highly debatable, and thus his views must not be slanted or implied without secondary sources (this means quotations of his works will amount to original research, especially when consensus is indicative of this);
    • Improve text on Nietzsche's relation to Socrates.
    • Cite sources;
    • Properly discuss 'Mental Breakdown' and compare different sourced theories, i.e. he was admitted to hospital with a syphilis infection which gradually causes nuero-degeneration over a period of up to five decades resulting in madness, he had an undiagnosed brain tumor, he was already insane and there is clear evidence for this, etc, etc.
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Nietzsche as German Philosopher (The "German" Issue...Yes...Again)

1. The Issue At Hand: On August 1st, user Pedant17 again attempted to edit the line identifying Nietzsche as a German philosopher. He has argued that the label "German philosopher" is vague, simplistic, and misleading to the point that it should not be used in our lead. As of August 2, 2008 he has not offered any good sources, scholarly or otherwise, which support his point of view.

2. "Nietzsche and the German Tradition": Pedant17 has pointed to the essay collection Nietzsche and the German Tradition to support his point of view. I have the book sitting next to me, and I fail to see what part of the book supports Pedant17's view. In fact, in his essay Nietzsche as German Philosopher, Thomas J. Brobjer writes:

The claim that Nietzsche was not a German Philosopher is perhaps a possible and reasonable claim with regard to the classical German philosophers...BUT WITH REGARD TO THE SECOND GROUP OF LESSER KNOWN GERMAN PHILOSOPHERS THIS CLAIM HAS ESSENTIALLY NO VALIDITY...NIETZSCHE, IN SPITE OF HIS CRITIQUE, WAS A GERMAN PHILOSOPHER, SPOKE AND WROTE IN GERMAN, AND LIVED IN A GERMAN CULTURAL CLIMATE (Page 41).

Unless Pedant17 is willing to demonstrate good faith by suppling us with reliable sources to support his opinion, I feel it is time to seek some sort of formal arbitration to prevent him from making this same edit every few months.Fixer1234 (talk) 02:09, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

There was an inconclusive request for comment on his behavior back in March 2008; both positions said it would be best to seek a request for comment on the content dispute instead, asking for a ruling on his behavior only if he continues to flout that first stage of arbitration. RJC Talk Contribs 16:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
The request for comment proved a red-herring: a diversion into (unwarranted) allegations of editing-behavior rather than addressing the matter of how to characterize Nietzsche in the lead of his Wikipedia article. I do not regard it as a floutable "first stage of arbitration" on the substantive issue... though it did emerge that no consensus exists -- a consensus which may now emerge with further discussion here. -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Brobjer's comments establish: 1: a "claim that Nietzsche was not a German Philosopher" exists. 2: The ingrained mantra that states "N. was a German philosopher" runs deep and broad. 3: Scholars can define their own views of Germanness, but pleading that N. "spoke and wrote in German, and lived in a German cultural climate" does not address the Wikipedia-specific guideline which states that the opening paragraph should give "3. Nationality ... In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable" and should not highlight ethnicity: "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." -- Since Nietzsche held no citizenship when he became notable, the lead paragraph should reflect this. The use of the German language and the existence of a "German cultural climate" (whatever that means) do not make Nietzsche a German citizen. We can discuss those matters in depth elsewhere -- though a mention of the German language in the lead seems to me entirely appropriate. The Germanness of Nietzsche's philosophy needs discussion as well -- but not necessarily in the lead, though we could try for a formulation along the lines "... a 19th-century Prussian-born philosopher (sometimes labelled a German philosopher)... who wrote in German ..." (how many times have I put forward alternative wording...?) -- If a reliable source discussed Nietzsche in the light of the Wikipedia guidelines, that would have some relevance here. Does anyone know of such a source? -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
1. The main point I intended to make with my post was that a source you've refered to in the past didn't seem to support your position. If I am wrong, could you point me to the section of "Nietzsche and the German Tradition" that you feel supports your view? This is certainly a good source, so if you can tell us how it makes your point (quotes from the text please) it would help your case. 2. In the past you've praised the Nietzsche article from the Shorter Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy for avoiding a "nationality label". This is true. However, The Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (the work from which the shorter is abridged) lists Nietzsche under Germany in the Index--not Switzerland, not Stateless, not Prussia or Prussian, etc 3. The Brobjer article, I think, supports the claim I've been trying to make for months now--Nietzsche scholars know all about the complexities of Nietzsche's nationality and Germaness, but they still find that the "German Philosopher" label is clear and acceptable. The index listing from the REP also supports this.Fixer1234 (talk) 05:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
  1. The book Nietzsche and the German Tradition, by its very title, emphasizes Nietzsche's links to things German. But it also admits that less Germano-centric views and approaches exist. See the preface (sorry: I don't have the work readily at hand) and Brobjer's own article, which raises the acknowledged view of non-Germanness if only to deny it. The principles of WP:NPOV editing encourage us to take account of both views in constructing our article as a whole.
  2. If the Shorter Routledge edited its parent-version for brevity and important points, its de-emphasis of Nietzsche's German links may indicate a trend...
  3. Nietzsche scholars may indeed have Nietzsche's status sorted out in their own minds -- but we have an encyclopedia to write and different guidelines and audiences to consider. What scholars find clear may confuse and mislead the general reader. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not really familiar with the issue as far as how the arguments balance out in the secondary literature. However, my sense is that this is not a question of either/or. As I tried to clarify in one of my edits, the issue seems to relate to the differing contexts in which one could assert whether he was "German". German citizenship, culture, ethnicity and language are four different things. For example, is someone with Austrian citizenship "German"? An Austrian might exist within the German cultural sphere, very generally speaking, and in the sense of language and perhaps shared cultural elements would be "German". But would a writer from the Austo-Hungarian empire be a German? Would such a writer even be an "Austrian" since the state by this name did not exist as such when he or she lived? Kafka is described here in the English Wikipedia as a "German language" writer, of Jewish descent, from Prague, in an attempt to deal with the mixed claims of ethnicity and language. I think the issue here is that the philosopher himself disavowed being a "German", and he frequently mentions the idea of the "good European" alongside derisive attacks on the newly crafted German nation. From this point of view calling Nietzsche a "German" without qualification seems like irresponsible misrepresentation. The number of citations which suggest that Nietzsche was "German" make no matter if qualifications surrounding the context are not offered. The number of people who generally refer to Nietzsche as a "German" in scholarly literature makes no difference in the face of the fact that he was not a German citizen, derided the German nation, and went to considerable and verifiable pains to distance himself from Germany. In this case the weight of the primary literature seems to me most important. If we are to accept Brobjer's argument we should refer to the Swiss and Austrians (and some Poles) as Germans because they spoke, wrote and lived in a "German cultural climate". Nietzsche verifiably became a good European and spent his later years wandering the continent. He also made strong arguments for the idea that a philosopher's life and actions are as important as his writings. In both his writings and his actions he distanced himself from being "German". Are we then to blithely list him as a "German"? Are we to assume that once a person is safely dead we can disregard the way he chose to identify himself? Again, this is a particularly important question given that Nietzsche's life, writings, philosophy and actions verifiably show that the idea of distancing one's self from "nationalism" was critical to his attitude and ideas. In short, should a summary paragraph focus on how others identified the subject of an encyclopedia article, or on how the subject of the article chose to identify (verifiably) his or her self while alive?

In this context, the actual question at hand is:


Does referring to Nietzsche as a "German" in the opening paragraph because of the frequency with which this designation appears in secondary literature violate NPOV policy by disregarding the following verifiable facts:

1. Nietzche chose to identify himself as a European

2. took the affirmative step of annulling his Prussian citizenship

3. never held citizenship in the German Empire

4. advances a philosophy which explicitly dismisses nationalism in general (and "German" nationalism in particular)


That said, as Pedant17 (apparently?) holds a minority view here, he or she has to do the hard work to advance the position. Furthermore, I do not support Pedant17 coming in and repeatedly changing things in the face of contrary arguments. I should also note that the issue of Nietzsche's feelings about being "German" is already addressed in "Notes on Citizenship" in this article (though this is a very clumsy solution, in my opinion). If I may speculate, it seems that Pedant17's concern is that despite the note, the summary paragraph describes Nietzsche as a "German", perpetuating the casual treatment that this subject receives in literature intended for the general public. While I have some sympathy for this point of view, the way in which he or she is dealing with the disagreement is not acceptable. If Pedant 17 wishes to make this a cause, then he or she should do the work of gathering the citations, presenting his or her argument in a clear way. He or she should also be willing to compromise - after all, as I mentioned, the article already discusses this question at length. The issue which everyone should address is whether existing mention is sufficient, and whether or not the summary paragraph's cursory treatment violates NPOV. --Picatrix (talk) 11:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your clear exposition of the problem of labelling Nietzsche tout court as "German" or as a "German philosopher". I would add to my previous statements (see the talk-page archives) at this point only comment on the way in which this long-running content-dispute has developed: "changing things in the face of contrary arguments" describes precisely what has repeatedly happened when editors have re-inserted the nationality-label "German" in the lead WITHOUT addressing the matter on the talk-page. Indeed, a stated (on the talk-page) policy of NOT discussing points raised has prevailed for long periods of time (see [Archive 9: "My possible solution, indicated by the heading of this comment, is that we ignore Pedant17's comments until support for his position is demonstrated.") Hence my attempts to move matters forward by periodically re-aligning the article with the current state-of-play on the talk-page in the light of the "silence denotes assent" maxim and the WP:BRD practice. A perceived minority view will remain as a perceived minority view if ignored -- however well expressed. -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I would like to remind editors that Pedant17 began his campaign against referring to Nietzsche as German in September 2006, with this edit. That is nearly two years ago. Since that time, he has insisted on continuing it, with virtually no support. He has done so without cessation, at first simply reintroducing his version nearly every month, then continuing a talk page campaign which has attracted no supporters. I would humbly suggest that there is a point at which the community should expect an editor in Pedant17's position to graciously accept defeat, failing which I would humbly suggest that such an editor should expect some kind of judgment from the community about their behavior. It is my belief that the community has shown remarkable patience with this campaign, but I truly wonder whether it is a constructive use of everybody's energies to allow it to carry on indefinitely. BCST2001 (talk) 03:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Since our Talk-page tasks involve improving articles rather than discussing alleged editorial behavior, let me merely suggest that no "campaign against referring to Nietzsche as German" exists -- merely an intermittent attempt to apply Wikipedia guidelines to a biography and to de-emphasize a spurious implication of nationality/citizenship in the opening sentences of our article. Anyone dissatisfied with progress on the matter might prefer to re-draft Wikipedia guidelines -- or at least spell out precisely why they should not apply in this case. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Pedant17 describes his efforts as an "intermittent attempt" to "de-emphasize a spurious implication," but in my opinion this does not quite capture what is going on here. The notion that somehow I am flouting Wikipedia guidelines is nonsense, and a classic case of what I believe is called in Wikipedialand "rules lawyering." If other editors are persuaded by this logic, they may of course continue this "debate" ad infinitum. I am merely suggesting that this is a poor use of one's energies, and that there is no good reason to put up with this any longer. What others do is up to them. BCST2001 (talk) 03:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I would say that anything you do to revert Pedant17's edits meets with my approval, and probably with the consensus of those editors who monitor the pages related to Friedrich Nietzsche. RJC Talk Contribs 04:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm a newcomer to Wikipedia, but it seems to me that desire to decisively "settle" academic questions should be guarded against. I'm also not sure how to imagine a community being patient or passing judgment. Both those things are the prerogative of individual editors. If I address a question to "the community" I'm certain it will be individual editors who answer. Anyway "the community" is five or six people in this case, so far as I can tell. I have not reviewed all of Pedant17's edits, but the facts adduced suggest to me that someone feels an edit needs to be made and others disagree. I just reviewed his or her apologia pro, and the arguments seem sound. They warrant a coherent response. For this reason I'm striking some of my comments above. It seems that Pedant17 is quite right about being ignored. Ignoring good supporting arguments - and then complaining about a user who continuously attempts to make the edit that those arguments support - strains the assumption of good faith. I also reviewed the request for comment and it seems groundless to me. From my point of view, passing judgement on an editor with a minority opinion because he or she hasn't graciously accepted "defeat", and because he or she continues to suggest a change is as comical as it is counter-productive. While I'm undecided about whether I should expend my energy on arguing the case for putative German identity one way or the other, I certainly support the idea that we should all seriously consider the idea of changing the designation. In that respect you can count this as my vote of support for discussion of the question. I like coming back to questions, again and again. That's what the "show preview" button is for. I suggest that those who support the idea of Nietzsche being German present their argument for keeping the current version in place. I'd like to see a cogent and thorough argument for why he should be called a German. In the absence of any such affirmative argument I suggest we set about drafting a new version here based on consensus. --Picatrix (talk) 05:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Picatrix: My argument as to why Nietzsche should be called German is simple. (1.) Wikipedia has a policy forbiding Original Research.While Pedant17 has many interesting points, he has not cited a single article which supports his view that Nietzsche should be called anything other than German. I have searched journal archives, ordered books through ILL, and searched the internet. I've found some good articles that discuss Nietzsche's Germaness and nationality (see archived posts). I have been looking for scholarly articles that support Pedant17's position--I have found none. (2.) Many published sources use the German label. I've linked to examples of the German label being used in the lead sentace of books and articles about Nietzsche. See these: Nietzsche: A Very Short Introduction, a 120 page book about Nietzsche, by Michael Tanner; The Cambridge Companion to Nietzsche by Bernd Magnus and Kathleen Marie Higgins, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Encyclopedia Britannica, The Routledge Companion to Historical Studies, The Continental Ethics Reader (published by Routledge), Main Currents of Western Thought from Yale University Press. The Importance of Nietzsche: Ten Essays does not begin with the phrase “German Philosopher...”. The first sentence speaks of “a young German who happened to live in Switzerland and taught classical philology in the University of Basle”. The second paragraph introduces that “young German” as Nietzsche. (3.) The people who write these books are proffessional scholars. They are aware that Nietzsche became "stateless" later in life. They know he was born in Prussia. As books like Nietzsche and the German Tradition demonstrate, many scholars are interested in questions about what exactly "German" means when applied to Nietzsche. However, they still find the German label clear and appropriate. (4.) We should call Nietzsche "German" because that label is what is supported by reliable sources. Pedant17 has interesting concerns and some good arguments. What he does not have is the support of published scholarship on Nietzsche.Fixer1234 (talk) 06:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
A full account of the arguments is preserved at Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche/Archive 9. The short of what I've said at various times runs as follows. The other nineteenth-century German philosophers and writers are called Germans; the Germans existed before the formation of a unified Germany, and Nietzsche was certainly one of those; the Manual of Style for biographies advises that nationality be included in the article introduction. Most important is the fact that the reasons against calling Nietzsche a German philosopher have constituted original research: reasons for the impropriety of doing so have been offered, but not reliable secondary sources to that effect. What evidence we do have is that there is a broad scholarly consensus in favor of calling Nietzsche a German. We reflect that consensus; we are not in the business of establishing or promoting The Truth. If the tone of this discussion sounds particularly acrimonious, it is because you are fortunate enough to have missed the last two years of tendentious editing by Pedant17. More detail on this debate can be found in the archived talk page: this is an issue that has been done to death and we are now beating the bloody smear where the horse used to be. RJC Talk Contribs 06:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your replies. These answers seem reasonable to me. I'll restrain myself and try to keep my replies very short since you all have had to hear about this for such a long time. The three most significant points here - I think - are: 1. The possible lack of secondary scholarship which might position this argument as original research, 2. the established (thank you Fixer1234) precedent for calling him "German" based on his ethnicity and 3. The fact that the question is already dealt with further along in the article for those who want to know more. Against 1. I can say nothing because I've not yet had a look at the secondary scholarship. Against 2. I can say that RJC's point about Bio style guidelines specifically mentions nationality, but the Germans existing before the emergence of the modern state were ethnically German, and Pedant17 has adduced policy guidelines that suggest ethnicity should be played down, while nationality should be played up. Don't know about all that myself but it bears examination. Against 3. I can say nothing. This issue has really been covered in the notes on nationality and citizenship. I know that Nietzsche was not a German citizen and I don't have a big problem with him being called a German in the lead because it is not strictly inaccurate given the multiple connotations. Only educated readers will care about these distinctions in the age of "play" stations, and they'll see the subject represented in the notes on citizenship, which have been given very prominent placement for "notes". I'm still willing to listen and discuss ideas, but my general feeling is that Pedant17 might consider accepting an existing compromise. I'm as much of a pedant as Pedant17, but I know that accurate detail sometimes takes a backseat to brevity and clarity in a lead sentence. Since the subject is already noted in the article and the word "German" is, because of multiple senses, not strictly inaccurate in the lead, I'm still not convinced that we need to rewrite it. I'll take a look at the secondary literature to see what I find. Thanks for your patience in going over all of this again. --Picatrix (talk) 12:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
In response to User:RJC:
  • "The other nineteenth-century German philosophers and writers are called Germans" -- This represents arguing in a circle. If we assume that Germans are called Germans, we can call Germans "German" without ambiguity in many cases -- but not in the case of Nietzsche when discussing citizenship. Nor does Wikipedia label Karl Marx as "German" in the lead of his article (though he arguably represents the German philosophical tradition better than does Nietzsche...)
  • "... the Germans existed before the formation of a unified Germany ..." -- sure, if one accepts nationalist pre-suppositions. But Nietzsche never held "German" citizenship -- so we do not have a good case for emphasizing his Germanness in a Wikipedia lead.
  • The Wikipedia Manual of Style for biographies currently states that a lead "should" (not "must") give nationality, and explains: "In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable." The wording "was a citizen when the person became notable" would preclude mis-labelling Nietzsche as 'German" in this immediate context. The WP:MOSBIO further states: "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability" -- which also militates against using the "German" label for a man who became prominent as a stateless person.
  • Has anyone time-travelled to 19th-century Switzerland to do original research? We can discuss German nationality and German philosophy in the article on the basis of published material (and I have, I hope, assisted in so doing), but merely omitting a nationalistic label in the lead in order to follow Wikipedia guidelines on citizenship and ethnicity does not, as far as I can see, constitute original research. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
In response to User:Fixer1234: (1.) De-emphasizing Nietzsche's Germanness involves no original research: the literature overwhelmingly documents his Prussian citizenship, his subsequent statelessness, and his doubts about the German political developments after the state known as the German Empire did emerge in 1871. -- (2.) Nobody disputes that many works characterize Nietzsche as "German" or as a "German philosopher". We would need to analyze each usage to determine (if possible) whether it refers to ethnicity, nationality, cultural background, philosophical tradition, citizenship, or something else... Wikipedia lead paragraphs concentrate on citizenship. -- (3.) Professional scholars do not always write clearly and appropriately themselves. Do we have scholarly statements to the effect that they find the "German" label "clear and appropriate"? (By the same token, other scholars can and do find it "clear and appropriate" to de-emphasize the Germanness of Nietzsche on occasion -- just by omitting the label. The lead of our article gains in clarity and appropriateness from a similar omission -- with the discussion of the details of what "German" might mean addressed elsewhere.) -- (4.) We can call Nietzsche "German", and we have reliable sources to support that. But we need not do so in a prominently ambiguous way. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
1. Wikipedia's definition of original research includes "analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." 2. You are right to say that "the literature overwhelmingly documents his Prussian citizenship, his subsequent statelessness", etc. The point, however, is that published literature discusses these fine points things and also overwhelmingly continues to call Nietzsche German. (Including in the first sentences and first paragraphs of books/articles.) 3. I appreciate that you seem to have thought about this issue a great deal. You have some fine points. However, your sources and arguments still amount to what Wikipedia considers original research—that is a “synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position.” You have not (in the more than six months I personally have been involved in this discussion) come up with any published sources that argue just what you are arguing. 5. Unless you can come up with published scholarly sources that establish that there is a clear movement in current work on Nietzsche to do away with the German label the German label must stay. To do otherwise would be to (as you say) “confuse and mislead the general reader.” 6. So I'll ask of you what I asked back in March---show us a published journal article, a masters thesis, a PhD dissertation, or book that argues that the “German” label is so problematic it should not be applied to Nietzsche.Fixer1234 (talk) 04:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
And, yes, we do have scholarly statements to the effect that they find the German label appropriate? See the quote from "Nietzsche as German Philosopher" above.Fixer1234 (talk) 04:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow. I just went over the heaps of back-and-forth recorded in the archive. I apologize for not having better prepared myself, and thereby having made it necessary for you all to have to repeat yourselves. I still have not had a chance to dig into secondary literature but even if a number of citations are found I think it's unlikely that they would support any sort of 'shoe-horning' of a nationality discussion into the opening paragraph, which should be concise and as clear as possible. In the balance of things some ambiguity can, in my opinion, be tolerated. That said it is clear that Pedant17 is not 'wrong' and that his or her argument has merit. Choosing to streamline the biographical information for purposes of a general introduction does in fact introduce significant ambiguity. Pedant17 also seems to feel strongly enough about the subject to hammer away at it for a few years. Instead of initiating requests for comment and all the rest is there some other approach or way of dealing with this issue that will result in a necessary minimum feeling of satisfaction for all parties? I should ask explicitly: Pedant17, can you suggest a solution to the problem that we all recognize, that does not involve removing "German philosopher" from the intro text? Surely we can all figure out an acceptable compromise. It seems positions have ossified here and that it should be easy to find a way to meet in the middle. Note: I do not mean to suggest that a compromise solution is not already in place in the form of the "Notes on Citizenship". --Picatrix (talk) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"German philosopher" tout court has too many ambiguities and implications: at the very least it would need a footnote on "German". -- I've suggested several different wordings over the months -- many of them got reverted without specific discussion. We could retrive a gallery of alternatives from the article history. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


I think perhaps that the subject of Nietzsche's feelings on citizenship, nationality, and state, might deserve a separate article. I've found a fair amount of material that would support such an endeavor. If Pedant17 wished to work on such an article I would be happy to help, and it would give the subject the attention it deserves. But Nietzsche doubtless thought of himself as a German for part of his life, during his youth. How else are we to explain his desire to join the army to participate in a German struggle? If we say he is not a German in the opening paragraph we might do justice to his later, intentionally crafted identity, but we'd replace one ambiguity with another: for part of his life Nietzsche was a citizen of a German nation. However, after looking into all of this, I feel that the most important argument in favor of leaving the ethnic description "German" in the introductory text is the definition of the word. My unabridged Websters shows "German" as: "1. A citizen or native of Germany; a person of German stock". My full OED shows German as "Of or pertaining to Germany or its inhabitants. The precise signification depends on the varying extension given to the name Germany." it notes that the earliest meaning of the word, deriving from the Latin, as "the designation of persons belonging to a group of related peoples inhabiting central and northern Europe, and speaking the dialects from which the 'Germanic' or 'Teutonic' languages have been developed." This suggests that in its earliest - and still its recognized primary sense - the word German does precisely serve its function of generally indicating Nietzsche's native land, ethnicity and language. Arguing that a word should not be included because one of its senses - and the most recent - creates ambiguity (citizen of modern Germany) while three other senses are right on the mark - and older - (native of a German land, German ethnicity, German language speaker) is not sufficient reason to introduce confusion or awkward phrasing such as "a 19th-century Prussian-born philosopher (sometimes labelled a German philosopher) who wrote in German" into the opening paragraph. That said I would be willing to see this opening sentence footnoted, or a separate article discussing the issue of his citizenship and nationality. But changing the German designation in the opening paragraph would be the sort of pedantry I cannot support (rare as that is), which is to say the sort that is too clever by half, and cuts off the nose to spite the face. By getting tangled in such niceties at the outset we'll be much more likely to cause confusion for new readers, and in any case the interests of the persons who would be looking for such details are being addressed by the existing note on citizenship. I've really listened to Pedant17's arguments past and present, I recognize their merit, and I've looked into the secondary literature. But I can't support changing the opening paragraph in this case. It is also not longer possible for Pedant17 to claim that he or she is being ignored. I suggest that we harness his or her enthusiasm and energy, and recognize the merit of his or her arguments by supporting the creation of separate article. This would add further clarity and conciseness in the main article, give the subject a full treatment in an appropriate place, and hopefully transform a nuisance (for some) into a constructive contribution. --Picatrix (talk) 13:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The suggestion that "Nietzsche doubtless thought of himself as a German for part of his life, during his youth" would need close scrutiny. We look back on 19th-century nationalism from a 21st-century vantage-point and see pan-Germanism as in some sense an inevitable winner -- but we cannot necessarily read such views back into the mind of the young Nietzsche who grew up in the centuries-old Prussian state structure. -- Likewise we need to beware of anachronism in explaining "his desire to join the army to participate in a German struggle". Did he see 1870 as a Franco-Prussian war or as a Franco-German showdown -- or just as a conflict in relation to which he felt a civic or humanitarian obligation? -- We cannot even definitively characterize the Prussia of Nietzsche's youth as exclusively "German" -- the very name of the state came (deliberately) from outside the German lands and large swathes of the Prussian countryside counted ethnically as Polish or Sorbian/Lusatian. -- If the Manual of Style did not highlight citizenship and eschew ethicity I would have no argument with your dictionary-based research apart from the one that we could look up "Prussian" and come to equally valid conclusions based on pre-assumptions -- but we can highlight German culture and the use of German language in other ways. -- I endorse the suggestion of a separate article -- should it neccessarily confine itself to Nietzsche's own views, though? -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, and for your interest in this subject. The point in this case is not whether you or I could look up "Prussian" and come to equally valid conclusions, it is rather whether others have in reliable secondary sources. When I refer to Nietzsche as thinking of himself as a German for part of his life I refer to the broadest ethnic and linguistic meaning. I am in full agreement with you regarding the foolishness inherent in retrospectively projecting our current mythos/ethos of "nationalism" backwards in time and speculating that the same assumptions held sway in the past. I do not suggest that he thought of himself as a German in any sense that would require assuming an outlook of "pan-Germanism" on his part. Your point regarding anachronism as regards his military service is also well taken. Against this view (which I feel is quite reasonable), one might suggest that the most fundamental behavioral indicator of a sense of collective identity is the fact of participation in war waged by that collective. From this point of view the ideological justification for participation in struggle is usually a rationalization of a deeply felt sense of obligation to the herd of which one is a part (which is of course a subject that occupied Nietzsche's attention). The "civic or humanitarian" obligations you mention derive from collective identity. Whether that identity was in the past defined as Prussian national identity, or German cultural and linguistic identity is of little consequence, given that we today habitually designate this collective (however Procrustean it may be) as "German". If you wish to campaign against the ignorance inherent in nationalistic assumptions, or the violence that our ill-considered terminology often does to history I applaud you. But this article is not the place to fire the first salvo. Nietzsche struggled on behalf of the people who spoke his mother language (German) and occupied the territory he was then a citizen of. I do not suggest that this is an argument that trumps yours, merely that it is an alternative point of view that should receive the attention it is due. In any case, we are engaging in defense of positions based on our own research and thoughts. Happily we can set this approach aside (while keeping our wits about us) and present the different attested viewpoints available in the secondary literature, in keeping with editorial guidelines.

My own feeling is that we should not confine ourselves to Nietzsche's own views, as this depends upon our own (potentially original) interpretation. Instead we should gather and display all of the primary material which is attested in Nietzsche's writings in the context provided by secondary literature, thereby assuring that we are not presenting original research. By addressing the various facets of the question dealt with by researchers we aim to ensure some facsimile of neutrality. The distinction between collation and organization, which is appropriate work for a Wikipedia editor, and original research, which is not, is sometimes hard to establish. For this reason editors often push for the most conservative interpretations and demand extensive citation and support from secondary sources. I hope it is clear that I am not arguing against original thought and research by individual scholars - rather I'm arguing against accepting it from Wikipedia editors.

I would like to hear what others here think of creating the new article, and what input (if any) they would like to offer regarding its potential structure. There is no shortage of material which deals with the citizenship and nationality question, and Nietzsche's thoughts about it. As a taste here are a few references I pulled when this subject first came up. There's more...

Lester H. Hunt, Nietzsche and the Origin of Virtue, Routledge 1993, p 37 [In section entitled "The Phenomenology of Citizenship"]: "By now it is obvious enough, I hope, why Nietzsche thought culture and the state are antagonistic and why his sympathies were overwhelmingly on the side of culture. His conception of culture is connected more or less by definition with the notion of development toward the ideal, in the he conceives of culture as that which fosters this sort of development. He has a very definite idea of what sort of awareness must be promoted in order for this mission of culture to be achieved. On the basis of an analysis of the sort of consciousness into which those who live in states are liable to fall - on the basis of might be called his phenomenology of citizenship - he believes that states tend by nature to interfere with the development of this sort of awareness. The state is thus antagonistic toward culture and, for all the same reasons, inferior to it."

Paul Van Tongeren, Reinterpreting Modern Culture, Purdue University Press, 2000, p 23 and p26: "Nietzsche was never very excited about either the political or the military events in the Germany of his day. As a matter of fact, Germany hardly existed. Nietzsche lived in Prussia, one of the states that later united with others to form Germany."

[and]

"Nietzsche accepted the appointment and, without any remorse, renounced his Prussian and German citizenship. From this point on Nietzsche was no longer a citizen of any nation. His lack of citizenship allowed him, later on, to call himself the first European (this could be another reason not consider him a German philosopher)."

Lou Andreas-Salome, Nietzsche, University of Illinois Press, 2001, ix, [regarding the photo of Nietzsche, Salome and Ree]: "The photograph's caption - 'Friedrich Nietzsche, formerly professor and now a wandering fugitive' - was mischievously snipped and transposed from a letter to Ree by Nietzsche in 1879, referring to the severance from his ten-year position at the University of Basel. The self-description 'fugitivus errans' had nothing to do with the idea of madness. It suggested Nietzsche's statelessness; he had to relinquish his German citizenship in 1869, but because of "continuous residence" requirements he never became a Swiss citizen either; instead he was pleased to call himself a 'good European'".

Catherine A. Holland,The Body Politic, Routledge, 2001, p175: "Can we break the spell of citizenship? Can we, as Nietzsche put it, conceive of a 'past from which we may spring rather than that from which we seem to have derived?'"

Let your citations do your work for you. --Picatrix (talk) 13:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Prescribed opening

At 1143 hours on 2008-08-01 an editor suggested in an edit-summary of an edit to the article that an "opening line should directly identify the subject: x is a y". I've encountered this sort of prescription before -- without ever seeing an accepted Wikipedia policy or guideline on the matter. Do we know of such a prescription? -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It's the preferred format of any example given in WP:LEDE. While there's no consensus that it should be prescribed, it enjoys popular support across the majority of articles on Wikipedia. While I don't believe that it should be rigidly adhered to, nor do I believe that it should be edited out as a matter of course. In this case, the introduction looked forced when it was changed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I see it too as merely a possible format, as presented by the examples. My introduction may well have seemed forced: my previous dozens of attempts to reword the opening sentence in various ways have each suffered reversion -- a matter of content rather than form. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Egalitarianism and Feminism

I think it's important to include Nietzsche's repudiation of egalitarian ideas (besides Christianity) like Democracy, Socialism, so I changed the introduction a little bit. BTW: It's hard to understand why Nietzsche's radical and antifeministic positions on womans were ignored in this article. They are at least as important as his views on democracy and socialism.--D.H (talk) 18:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Articles to help grow the "Notes on citizenship.." section

  • Morgan, D., Nietzsche and National Identity. A companion to Nietzsche, pp.455-474, 2006. You can read sections of the essay on Google Books.
  • Blue, Daniel. What Was Nietzsche's Nationality? The Journal of Nietzsche Studies - Issue 31, Spring 2007, pp. 73-82.(Abstract here).
  • Brobjer., Thomas H., Nietzsche as German Philosopher. Nietzsche and the German Tradition, ed. Nicholas Martin. - Oxford, 2003 (Abstract here). Fixer1234 (talk) 04:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I am collecting resources related to this section in my Sandbox: User:Fixer1234/sandboxFixer1234 (talk) 09:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Morality & Article restructuring

This section was tagged as WP:OR in February of 2008—but the user left no discussion on the talk page. My opinion? : the content is not WP:OR - but the tone in which it is written makes it sound like it is. As we all know there are many, varied interpretations of Nietzsche's thought and this style of writing comes off as too dogmatic. I want this tag gone. I'm thinking of doing a re-write with a less aggressive tone—thinking this is enough. Is it? ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 19:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Nothing in the material strikes me as original research. It reads like an overview of some aspects of Nietzsche's revaluation project that focuses rather heavily on Christianity in discussion of slave morality. For example it leaves out the whole question of Socrates and his introduction of the dialectic, supreme tool of those promoting slave morality. It also leaves out a discussion of how Nietzsche measured what values are life affirming and hence worth positing as the "Yes". It also has strange artifacts like "Christians dominated by Rome" as somehow qualifying Nietzsche's attacks on Christianity as being less critical of Protestantism. But none of that really bothers me. The current structure of this entire article is its biggest problem, so I see no reason to quibble over a rewrite. I should say though that if you want to get rid of WP:OR tags, citation is a much better strategy than a rewrite. Many attempts to summarize Nietzsche's views on morality exist in published secondary sources. Why not present a few of these summaries, rather than writing from scratch with no citations? The absence of any citations or mention of views from secondary sources is probably why the tag is hanging there. --Picatrix (talk) 01:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Well I looked up the original editor in the history and asked him about it but he has apparently lost interest. So I am going to remove the tag and give a single cite to cover the lot. Later on I'll try to finesse it with a more nuanced tone. I don't believe in excess citation. This article's already covered with it like flies on dog-spit. The section concerned here can be found in any number of books on N.'s thought. A problem typical of articles about controversial figures like N. is editors trying to spin his thought in one direction attracting other editors who want to spin in a different direction and who immediately challenge with the fact tag. Then, more often than not, the nasty thing just sits there, like a hairy mole on a witch's chin. The result? an article that looks like this one—distracting and bothersome to the casual reader.
In regards to the article as a whole I've been meaning for a while to devote some time to a partial overhaul. I'd like to see the "Works" section reduced to a simple list with links to their own articles. Then expand on the core themes like:
  1. Übermench
  2. God is Dead
  3. Eternal Return
  4. Will to Power
  5. Perspectivism
etc. I've also been toying with the idea of following up the conventional bio with a "thought-bio" consisting of a chronological look at the evolution of his philosophy. This approach can be found in several of the Nietzschean vade mecums.
Just some ideas. Run them up the flagpole and see who salutes. Ideas? ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Not only the works section, also the philosophical section should be reduced, so we can go on and improve the (very biased) article Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche. --D.H (talk) 18:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm one hundred percent behind having a list with links. Then people who want to read more can do so and those who don't can read the basic article here.--Picatrix (talk) 19:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I've begun the restructuring discussed above and would like to ask Picatrix & D.H if they would sort of follow along behind me and make sure nothing gets lost by falling between the cracks—six eyes being better than two. I'd also like to invite anyone to let me know if they think I've missed something or gone awry in any way. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 17:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Alcmaeonid--Just wanted to say I think your edits are a bold step in a very positive direction! Thanks! Fixer1234 (talk) 04:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. We now have works organized in a much better way. Thanks for doing the significant work necessary. We now have Biography as a main section with subheadings. I wonder if "will to power", "morality" and the rest should be organized similarly under philosophy? I suspect you may already be thinking this way, based on what you wrote above about expanding core philosophical themes. This would give us a very simple overall structure for the article. I am not suggesting that these sections get moved to separate pages the way that the works were, rather that they become numbered subheadings like 2.3 or 2.4, instead of 3,4,5, etc. Thoughts? --Picatrix (talk) 13:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

About the tag on: "Nietzsche's earliest philosophical influences were Greek and American, not German." You're right--it needs a citation. I've read a few things that discuss this. I'll dig through my folder of Nietzsche articles and see which one(s) would work best. Whenever possible, I like to use sources that will be more accessible for non-philosophers.Fixer1234 (talk) 02:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I also tried to find the Brobjer passage you included, so that I could cite its location, but for some reason I couldn't locate it. Would you mind adding a citation to it as well? --Picatrix (talk) 15:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and used your idea Picatrix, moving the individual topics under the Philosophy head. This is just a first step to make it easier to look at and think about. I've been reconsidering though whether expanding on these is a good idea. This is a general introduction article and the focus of this section should probably remain just that: introductory. Telescoping them might be a better approach and then move our energy over to Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche and re-editing/expanding the core themes there. As D.H mentioned above, the latter article needs much work also. Take a look at the Søren Kierkegaard article. I think it a good model. There the Thought section is relatively small (with the {{main}} link of course to the full version) in comparison to the biographical detail which is interspersed with looks at how his ideas evolved. Let me know what you all think. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 01:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for shortening the works section. And as I said above: We should completely eliminate the sections "Morality, The death of God, nihilism, and perspectivism, The Will to Power, Übermensch, The principle of Eternal Return." The only thing we need is
Regards, --D.H (talk) 18:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree that that would be appropriate. I think that things as they stand are pretty close to WP:Summary style. RJC Talk Contribs 18:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Influence

Are there any guidelines for whether someone should be included as influenced by Nietzsche? Mention has been made of whether or not the supposedly influenced person has been mentioned in the article, but Kafka and Gibran are included and are not mentioned in the article. RJC has often brought up the fact that the person in the influenced list should be a "philosopher" (and I'm not really sure just what that means). Gibran might be considered a philosopher, but Kafka and Yeats seem like writers and poets to me. Not that a writer or poet cannot be a philosopher, but I'm not seeing a consistent standard here. I ask because a user is trying to place Kundera in the influenced list. Currently there is no mention of Kundera in the article, Kundera would seem not to be a philosopher in any strict sense, and there is no citation for the claim of Nietzsche's influence in the Kundera article itself. I have removed the Kundera addition because there is no citation. But guidelines need to be established here by consensus or reference to editorial standards. Can anyone offer me guidance as regards this issue? --Picatrix (talk) 14:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

There was some talk on Template talk:Infobox Philosopher, but the guidelines are rather flexible. There was some suggestion that the person should be important enough to be mentioned in the article (with citations), and someone agreed on this page months ago (I have no idea which archive that's now in). At the very least, inclusions still have to satisfy WP:V. I have no problem removing authors, especially as there was a time when any author not influenced by Nietzsche was a hack. RJC Talk Contribs 17:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I suppose that leaves us with case-by-case decisions, which if somewhat vague can at least be considered flexible. I also have no problems with removing authors. As you mentioned, in many cases it is more a question of who was not influenced by Nietzsche. It sounds as though we should consider inclusion based on notability and - to some extent - relevance to philosophical discussion. But do you all feel that Yeats, Gibran and Kafka belong on the list? --Picatrix (talk) 15:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Clearly, any candidate for either the "Influences" or "Influenced" categories should be able to have his/her status confirmed by scholarly sources. The editor proposing the candidate should provide those sources. As RJC and Picatrix have noted, Nietzsche is such a pivotal thinker that it is often a question of who was not influenced by him. There is at least one issue unique to the "Influenced" category. It is quite possible for (1) someone (such as Yeats?)to be strongly influenced by Nietzsche and for (2) that fact to be significant to the study of the influenced individual but insignificant to the study/understanding of Nietzsche. One possible criterion would be an assessment of whether the sources given are about Nietzsche as much as they are about the influenced individual. It would be easy, for instance, to find articles that engage the philosophy of Foucault and Nietzsche with equal rigor. Can the same be said for Yeats or Gibran? Fixer1234 (talk) 04:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

My own opinion is that this sounds like a very good approach. If this sort of standard is applied, writers like Camus or Mann definitely belong in the "influenced" list. Probably Mencken as well... But London, Kafka, Gibran, Kesey and Yeats really don't strike me as appropriate. Summarizing the input thus far it seems that for inclusion in the "influenced" list:

1. A 'philosophical' context is preferred, but not required.

2. Citable mention of the influenced individual in the context of Nietzsche studies is required.

3. In keeping with #2, mention of Nietzsche's influence upon the individual in question in the context of studies pertaining to that individual is not in itself sufficient to guarantee mention; these candidates for inclusion will be decided on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus and established Wikipedia guidelines.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? --Picatrix (talk) 12:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Since there is both a section and an entire article devoted to this subject (more than covering all the bases), I say we limit the influenced section of the philosophers infobox to philosophers only. I think that was the original intenion anyway. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 13:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for this approach. If anyone else disagrees, please let me know. If I don't hear anything I'll pull all non-philosophers from the influenced box. We'll be losing a number of names, one of which (Dostoevsky) is tagged in the markup as someone who should not be removed. I don't want to step on anyone's toes so please let me know your thoughts. La Rochefoucauld is also a writer, and so, presumably, should be removed? --Picatrix (talk) 15:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I think a figure like Dostoevsky demonstrates the significant disadvantage of a strict restriction to philosophers. Nietzsche wrote about reading Dostoevsky. There is a good deal of scholarship that connects the two. Google search of JSTOR brings up over 1,000 hits for pages containing both "Nietzsche" and "Dostoevsky". For example, A Note on Nietzsche and Dostoevsky reads: "Nietzsche, on the other hand, not only knew some of Dostoevsky's principle works, but regarded him as the only psychologist from whom he had anything to learn and who belonged among the 'happiest windfalls' of his life." I've not sorted through all of the JSTOR hits, but if even a tenth of them discuss both Nietzsche and Dostoevsky at length, we would have strong argument for keeping D. in the info box. Perhaps we just need to be a little bit liberal or creative in our definition of "philosopher"? After all, Dostoevsky is commonly read in philosophy classes (on existentialism) at the university level. At any rate, we need to be careful that our desire to eliminate "fancruft" doesn't lead us to automatically cut figures significant to the study and understanding of Nietzsche. I say--let the literature be the measure.Fixer1234 (talk) 12:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
You're right about Dostoevsky. We should probably distinguish between the Influences and Influenced fields, and be strict only about the latter. RJC Talk Contribs 13:52, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Sounds great!Fixer1234 (talk) 14:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems like the consensus then is the following: in the philosophers infobox we will limit the "influenced" list strictly to philosophers. "Infuenced by" will have a broader set of inclusion criteria to include those who had a significant impact on N's thought. If this is so we should ask Picatrix to go ahead and prune the "influenced" list per her proposal above. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 15:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

YesFixer1234 (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Aye. RJC Talk Contribs 23:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the edit. Please check my work. There were some close calls and some notability issues seemed to rear up once the list was pruned to a more viewable size. Nothing is fixed in stone. Consider this a first cut. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 00:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry guys, I'm in freak-out mode preparing for a conference and was not able to get to it. It all looks good to me. This article is really improving! Thanks for taking care of it. --Picatrix (talk) 19:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)