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This notice board is provided so that editors can ask for advice about material that might be original research (OR) or original synthesis.

The policy that governs the issue of original research is Wikipedia: No original research (WP:NOR). It says: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." For questions about the policy itself, please go to WT:NOR.

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Chiropractic section on evidence basis

Does Chiropractic #Evidence basis have a significant synthesis problem?

In the opinion of the section's critics, the section is a WP:SYN violation when it presents specific research on spinal manipulation (SM) as evidence of effectiveness of chiropractic care as opposed to the whole range of treatments performed by chiropractors (not just SM), because the reader may confuse the assertions about spinal manipulation specifically as being assertions about chiropractic treatment in general.

In the opinion of the section's proponents, the section clearly distinguishes SM research from other research, every claim in the section is directly supported by a reliable source, standard practice in evidence-based chiropractic relies on SM research, and excluding highly-relevant mainstream research would raise serious WP:WEIGHT problems.

See also Syn tag, SYN and implicit conclusions, and Proposed wording for NOR/N. Eubulides (talk) 18:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(Levine2112 edited the above comment; I am taking the liberty of restoring my comment as written, and moving Levine2112's easily separable additions to the following paragraph. He is of course welcome to make further changes and additions to his comments. Eubulides (talk) 21:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC))
In the opinion of the section's critics, the section is a WP:SYN violation when it presents specific research about non-chiropractic spinal manipulation (SM) as evidence of the effectiveness of chiropractic care. The proponents justify such a presentation by citing that other researchers have synthesized similar presentations about chiropractic from non-chiropractic SM research, thus we should be able to do the same sort of synthesis here at Wikipedia. Even though the non-chiropractic SM research makes no conclusions whatsoever about chiropractic specifically, the proponents still want to use such research to make conclusions about chiropractic in the Wikipedia article. Their justification is that such synthesis is "standard practice" (even though this is actually a matter of contention in the chiropractic research world and not standard practice at all). Levine2112 discuss 19:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could boil this down to a simpler question so that one could more quickly respond.Calamitybrook (talk) 21:25, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

No kidding! Let me try. The question is whether it's original research for Chiropractic #Effectiveness to summarize and cite scientific studies on the effectiveness of treatments used by chiropractors, even when those studies focus on the treatments, not on chiropractic. An example study is Bronfort et al. 2008, PMID 18164469. (Is that short enough?) Eubulides (talk) 01:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
This is actually a misleading summary as it misses the point. Let's just clarify here and expand- rather than shorten - so we can explain the whole story for clarity. Spinal manipulation (SM) is a treatment used by many kinds of practitioners (chiropractors, osteopaths, physical therapists, etc.) Chiropractors employ a specialized form of spinal manipulations with specialized techniques which differ from other practitioners. Despite the difference in techniques, some researchers have applied the findings from studies of spinal manipulation as performed by non-chiropractors (non-chiropractic SM) to the efficacy of chiropractic SM. Those few studies are not being questioned here.
What is being questioned is the use of other studies of non-chiropractic SM which in themselves make no conclusions about the efficacy of chiropractic manipulation specifically nor are there any researchers out there applying the findings from these non-chiropractic SM studies to the efficacy of chiropractic SM. Though these studies are about spinal manipulation, they are not making any conclusions whatsoever about chiropractic spinal manipulation specifically. However, currently we are using these non-chiropractic SM studies to draw our own conclusions about chiropractic SM at Chiropractic #Effectiveness. Herein lies the WP:SYN violation.
What's more, there is much debate in the scientific community about whether it is okay to apply non-chiropractic SM studies to draw conclusions about chiropractic SM. In some cases, chiropractic researchers came under heavy fire from the scientific community after they used positive efficacy studies of non-chiropractic SM to declare that "chiropractic works". In these cases, the scientific community actually said that it is not all right to apply non-chiropractic SM studies to make conclusions about chiropractic SM specifically.
So to distill it down to one simple question: If one study applies general SM research to make conclusions about chiropractic SM, does that give us at Wikipedia license to draw the same conclusions about chiropractic SM from other non-chiropractic SM studies? -- Levine2112 discuss 07:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I may understand it a little better. I don't think Eubulide's summary was misleading, but perhaps a little unclear. Thanks Levine, for revising your initial inquiry. Taking the latest version of the question again at face value, one simple test might be whether anybody in the real (non-Wikipedia) world is actually using these various other studies to draw conclusions about chiropractic therapy. You might seem to be implying above that the answer is that yes, somebody is (who and for what purpose?), because otherwise, perhaps there wouldn't be a "debate." If the answer is no, defending the disputed material as non-SYN becomes slightly more complicated, but I'd still be inclined to do so, given the "one study" to which you refer.

A cursory reading of the article (all you can reasonably expect from a reader) doesn't make the issues you've described sufficiently clear. Perhaps it would be useful to precede the material in question with a very brief summary of the research and an equally brief statement of what you've described as the "debate" about its interpretation. (By the way, I'm not certain that the level of detail now included is necessary, but maybe I am just insufficiently curious.)

Also, when you say "chiropractic researchers," and "scientific community," are any of these people chiropractors? Also, what about the editors? Optimally, chiropractors would not be involved in this article, due to conflicts of interest. Calamitybrook (talk) 15:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some non-chiropractic SM studies which some researchers have applied as evidence (for or against) chiropractic SM efficacy. There are many other non-chiropractic SM studies which no researcher has applied as evidence (for or against) chiropractic SM efficacy. It is this latter group of non-chiropractic SM studies with which this post is concerned. Though no researchers have applied these non-chiropractic studies to chiropractic, some editors are attempting to make such an application based on the rationale: "Some researchers have made the same application with some studies, so why can't we make the same application with some other studies?"
To answer your questions from above: "Chiropractic researchers" in this case could be chiropractors researching chiropractic, non-chiropractors researching chiropractic, or the chiropractic community in general. "Scientific community" refers to the vague body of all scientific-minded researchers. Some of our editors are chiropractors, some are outspoken chiropractic skeptics, some are chiropractic proponents, and some are neutral editors. As for myself, I am not a chiropractor. I am not a doctor or health practitioner of any kind. I see no COI issue with chiropractors editing the chiropractic article, nor do I see any issue with chiropractic skeptics editing the article. That is, provided that the individual editor can put their biases and POV in check when it comes time to edit the article. -- Levine2112 discuss 21:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
  • one simple test might be whether anybody in the real (non-Wikipedia) world is actually using these various other studies to draw conclusions about chiropractic therapy There's little question that these studies are used in that reason. The example source I cited (Bronfort et al. 2008, PMID 18164469) is too recent to be cited by other sources, but it's quite clear who its authors and audience are. It is a review of spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) for low back pain. It has five authors, all chiropractors, and it says "The vast majority of SMT (previously estimated at 94%) in North America is provided by Doctors of Chiropractic (DCs)". The older sources being cited along the same lines (e.g., Assendelft et al. 2004, PMID 14973958) are explicitly cited in later chiropractic guidelines such as this 2007 guideline. Eubulides (talk) 15:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course the issue here is not only whether chiropractors use 94% of spinal manipulation (SMT), but that SMT is not "the only thing" that chiropractors do. When editors cite conclusions from research on SMT, the reader thinks we are talking about "chiropractic care" - which obviously includes other things as well. It would be like writing about all the research around Vioxx in the Medicine article. While a mention of the research on spinal manipulation is appropriate on Chiropractic, the details and nitty gritty need to go in the Spinal manipulation article where it can be discussed NPOV. To try and word research on SMT as if it is talking about chiropractic and putting it under a heading about chiropractic is misleading the reader to conclude that the results of the research on SMT can be equated with chiropractic as a profession and we suggest is really a synthesis error. BTW, I am a chiropractor, so do consider that in your thinking. -- Dēmatt (chat) 15:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
  • The analogy with Vioxx is flawed. Spinal manipulation (SM) is identified with chiropractic; the overwhelming majority of chiropractic patients are treated with SM. This close relationship does not exist with Vioxx and mainstream medicine.
  • The text in Chiropractic clearly states when it is discussing SM, and distinguishes it from other treatments used by chiropractors, which are also discussed briefly.
  • This noticeboard is about original research, not about which articles text should go into; if the text in question were original research in Chiropractic, it would equally be original research in Spinal manipulation.
Eubulides (talk) 16:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Same name

My 2c is that wikipedians do not have the authority or expertise to make the judgement that a paper studying a technique with the same name as a chiropractic technique is actually studying the chiropractic technique, unless the paper explicitly states it. Another reliable source would be required to make the connection. As an analogy, two papers on Induction for example, are not necessarily related - you could be talking about mathematical induction or inductive reasoning. --Surturz (talk) 04:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
This particular case differs from your 2c, for two reasons. First, chiropractors prefer to call the technique "chiropractic adjustment" or "spinal adjustment"; "spinal manipulation" is the mainstream name for the treatment technique. Second, we have reliable sources saying that the various names are aliases, and that it's valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from research about spinal manipulation, even if the latter research includes some data from non-chiropractic sources. Sorry, I don't follow the analogy; it seems to be saying that one can't rely on the words used by reliable sources, which is surely not what was intended. Taken to an extreme, the analogy would mean that one could not trust a paper on mathematical induction as a source for Mathematical induction, since the paper's "mathematical induction" might be something other than the "mathematical induction" of Mathematical induction. Eubulides (talk) 06:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
* I think you misread my post. My analogy is that if a paper talked about "Induction", wikipedians would not be able to use it in either the Mathematical induction or Inductive reasoning articles, unless another RS could be found linking it to one or the other. I don't know about the international experience, but in my country a chiropractor would never use a 'spinal manipulation' because 'manipulation' is a chiropractor-jargon word meaning 'non-chiropractic technique'. I cannot see how a wikipedian can draw the conclusion that the study of a technique, that is not explicitly stated to be a chiropractic technique, somehow relates to chiropractic. I am sure there are a wealth of studies of actual chiropractic techniques that can be cited, no need to draw a long bow. --Surturz (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
  • No such confusion exists in the sources in question. They use "spinal manipulation" to refer to the techniques that many chiropractors prefer to call "spinal adjustment". We have reliable sources saying the two terms are synonymous in this context. Eubulides (talk) 08:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Above Eubulides says that "we have reliable sources saying that... it's valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from research about spinal manipulation, even if the latter research includes some data from non-chiropractic sources". Neglecting the fact that we also have reliable sources saying just the opposite, while it may be valid for researchers to draw such conclusions, when editors do so here at Wikipedia, it is a clear OR violation. And that you are basing your rationale to draw such a conclusion by pointing out that some researchers do it (so why can't we do the same?) is what makes this a SYN violation. You are taking (A) non-chiropractic research and taking (B) some researchers' opinions about how it was okay for them to apply other non-chiropractic research to chiropractic, then combining A and B together to make (C) an original statement about chiropractic. Again, there would be no issue with you using (in context) a specific piece of non-chiropractic research at Chiropractic when there is a reliable source applying that specific piece of non-chiropractic research to chiropractic. However, to do the same when there is no reliable source making such an application is problematic. -- Levine2112 discuss 07:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Every claim in Chiropractic #Evidence basis is directly supported by on-point citations; no one is disputing this. Surturz's comment "Another reliable source would be required to make the connection" directly disagrees with your analysis; not that this is relevant, since the kind of (A)-(B)-(C) statement you're talking about does not appear in the section in question. Eubulides (talk) 07:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Either you don't understand my analysis or you don't understand Surturz's comment, because it seems he/she completely agrees with me. You are joining A and B to make point C. This is a SYN. When Surturz says "Another reliable source would be required to make the connection", he/she means that you would need a source which directly connects A and B (and thus makes the conclusion C itself), rather than you doing the connecting of A and B and making the conclusion C yourself.
Essentially, you are trying to use non-chiropractic source A to make a conclusion C about chiropractic. And you are using source B - which though is not directly about the research in source A - does tell the story how the researchers used some other non-chiropractic research to make some other chiropractic conclusion. You are just trying to follow their lead by doing the same with other non-chiropractic research. However, in doing so, you are violating OR. -- Levine2112 discuss 15:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I also disagree with that analysis of my comments. Furthermore, this noticeboard is about articles, not about comments in talk pages. Chiropractic #Evidence basis does not have the (A)-(B)-(C) pattern that you describe. Again, every claim in Chiropractic #Evidence basis is directly supported by on-point citations; no one is disputing this. Eubulides (talk) 17:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's clear things up. Do you agree that Chiropractic #Evidence basis contains material derived from and sourced to references which - on their own - state nothing specifically about chiropractic? -- Levine2112 discuss 18:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Some references state something specifically about chiropractic; others state something specifically about spinal manipulation, chiropractic's primary treatment modality; others state something specifically about treatment guidelines for low back pain, the problem that most people go to a chiropractor to see for; others state something specifically about other topics highly relevant to chiropractic.
  • This thread is repeating a long discussion that's already been held in Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 24 #Syn tag, Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 24 #SYN and implicit conclusions, and Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 25 #Proposed wording for NOR/N. As far as I can tell, no new points have been raised in this thread. I see little point in repeating it here; this section is already too long. I suggest re-raising the issue, if there's interest, in Talk:Chiropractic.
Eubulides (talk) 21:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Good, so it does sound like you agree that Chiropractic #Evidence basis contains material derived from and sourced to references which - on their own - state nothing specifically about chiropractic. As you point out, some of these non-chiropractic studies are actually studying spinal manipulation as performed by non-chiropractors (osteopaths, physical therapists, etc.) My next clarifying question: Do you agree that there is disagreement in the scientific community about if it is "okay" for chiropractors and others to use the results of non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research in order to make some conclusion about the efficacy/safety of chiropractic spinal manipulation? -- Levine2112 discuss 21:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I did not point that out. All the studies in question rely on chiropractic data. Some also included data derived from non-chiropractors but this data is in the minority, as the vast majority of spinal manipulation is performed by chiropractors. I see no evidence of any disagreement in the scientific community about this standard research practice. Eubulides (talk) 08:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I disagree that all the studies in question rely on chiropractic data and I have shown you several accounts where that is false. Further, regardless if the studies used chiropractic data mixed with non-chiropractic, if in their conclusion they don't say anything specific about chiropractic, we shouldn't be using it at article Chiropractic, but rather at article Spinal manipulation. I am astounded that after months of me showing you quite the opposite, you still are claiming that there is " no evidence of any disagreement in the scientific community" about confounding non-chiropractic research with chiropractic effectiveness. For instance, there was a RAND study on the appropriateness of spinal manipulation which came out quite favorable for spinal manipulation. When chiropractors jumped on that research to proclaim things such as "Chiropractic works!", the chiropractors were in turn jumped on by the researchers who said that these studies were not about chiropractic specifically, but rather spinal manipulation in general and that chiropractors were in effect misusing these studies. RAND spokesperson Dr. Paul Shekelle, released this statement:
"...we have become aware of numerous instances where our results have been seriously misrepresented by chiropractors writing for their local paper or writing letters to the editor... RAND's studies were about spinal manipulation, not chiropractic... Comparative efficacy of chiropractic and other treatments was not explicitly dealt with."
I showed you this and other evidence many times so I honestly don't think that you should claim that you haven't seen such evidence. Please acknowledge (either publicly or privately) that this evidence exists and that confounding general spinal manipulation studies with chiropractic effectiveness is not standard research practice at all. It is frowned upon by many. And for us to continue such a practice here ourselves - doing the confounding ourselves in an article - is a clearcut case of original research regardless. -- Levine2112 discuss 18:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Which study cited in Chiropractic #Evidence basis does not rely on chiropractic data? This is a new claim that I don't recall seeing before. (The rest of this discussion is merely rehashing old arguments.)
  • None of the studies are summarized inaccurately or misleadingly in Chiropractic. If a study is about spinal manipulation, it is clearly summarized that way, and only the conclusions drawn by that study are summarized.
  • Shekelle's 1993 letter warns about confusing SM and chiropractic. No such confusion exists in Chiropractic #Evidence basis. The two notions are clearly distinguished, and evidence about the one is not presented as if it were evidence about the other.
  • More recent studies make a regular practice of combining chiropractic and non-chiropractic data to study SM. They are careful to not confuse chiropractic with SM, just as Shekelle warned against. Leading mainstream chiropractic researchers have said that this current common practice is normal and acceptable. We should not exclude mainstream chiropractic research on the fringe grounds that it is tainted by non-chiropractic data; that would be substituting our own judgment for that of the mainstream experts.
Eubulides (talk) 19:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
For months now, I have pointed out several studies which either make no mention of chiropractic in any meaningful way in terms of the research conclusions and/or do not rely on any chiropractic data. Even if we explain that these studies are about spinal manipulation and not about chiropractic, it still doesn't justify including it at an article entitled Chiropractic. It misleads the reader. (Could we include research about astronomy if we make it clear that it isn't about chiropractic?) And the only way you are justifying the relevance of this non-chiropractic research is by original research. Move these pieces to Spinal manipulation where they are more appropriate. -- Levine2112 discuss 02:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
If some editor wrote about research about astronomy in Chiropractic, it would soon be removed as irrelevant, just as any vandalism would be removed. That would not be a WP:OR issue, and this is not a WP:OR issue either. Eubulides (talk) 06:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
If those editors supporting the inclusion of astronomy research at Chiropractic were basing their rationale on the fact that some researched have applied other astronomy research to Chiropractic (so why can't we as editors apply other astronomy research?) then that would be OR. And that is exactly what is happening here. Now I am a person of the world and I recognize that spinal manipulation is more relevant to chiropractic than astronomy is. But that doesn't mean that spinal manipulation is the same as chiropractic. Hence the two distinct articles chiropractic and spinal manipulation. But because they are somewhat related is why confounding spinal manipulation with chiropractic is more dangerous than confounding astronomy with chiropractic. It is harder for the reader to know the difference. I mean really read the section in question. It is very confusing. The way it is written, it feels as though it has nothing to do with chiropractic and only to do with spinal manipulation. That's why this info is more apropos at the spinal manipulation article. And remember, chiropractors perform a specialized version of spinal manipulation, distinct in technique, diagnosis and philosophy than spinal manipulation performed by osteopaths, PTs and even MDs. That why their specialized techniques are referred to as spinal adjustment. That's why scientific researchers (chiropractors and non-chiropractors alike) dispute using spinal manipulation research to say anything specific about chiropractic spinal manipulation. Note that even at Wikipedia, we have distinct article for the general spinal manipulation and the specific chiropractic spinal adjustment. Clearly, a Wikipedian who applies non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research to a section about the evidence basis of chiropractic specifically has violated the basic principle of OR. -- Levine2112 discuss 07:07, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
If the section is confusing, then it would be helpful to point out the confusing wording; confusion can be addressed by clearer writing. But that is a style issue, not an original-research issue, and it does not belong in this noticeboeard. As for "a Wikipedian who applies non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research to a section about the evidence basis of chiropractic", this noticeboard is supposed to be about what's in Chiropractic #Evidence basis, not about Wikipedians; and every claim in that section is supported directly by a reliable source. Eubulides (talk) 07:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
That's a pretty misleading way to put it when you write: "Do you agree that there is disagreement in the scientific community about if it is "okay" for chiropractors and others to use the results of non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research in order to make some conclusion about the efficacy/safety of chiropractic spinal manipulation?" Something similar happened, but fundamentally different. Spinal manipulation was studied, and when the results were favorable, chiropractors immediately trumpeted the results as vindication for the profession of chiropractic, NOT of "the efficacy/safety of chiropractic spinal manipulation", as you put it. That incensed the researchers so much that they had to write in a chiropractic source and scold the profession for doing that. They made it clear that their study was only about spinal manipulation (which included 94 or so percent chiropractic manipulation), not about the profession and all of its other methods, odd ideas, and unscientific practices, etc.. They weren't about to legitimize the profession with all its baggage, and they made that clear.
As to the use of spinal manipulation research that happens to include some few other professional practitioners, the studies are nearly always of 94 or so percent chiropractic manipulation plus a smidgin of others, IOW its conclusions still say more about chiropractic manipulation than anything else.
Now if a study specifically uses manipulation exclusively performed by non-DCs like PTs (such as a famous Dutch study), then specifically that study should be disallowed. Otherwise, by far most studies are about chiropractic manipulation with a near homeopathic dose of others, not enough to alter anything.
As far as safety studies go, the most notable and best study of this type ever done specifically revealed that chiropractors are implicated in far more injuries and deaths than other professions: "Manipulation of the Cervical Spine: Risks and Benefits", by Richard P Di Fabio, Phys Ther, Vol. 79, No. 1, January 1999, pp. 50-65. It was a very thorough analysis, and none since has topped it. -- Fyslee / talk 03:28, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
While I don't think your last paragraph adds much to this particular conversation (and is a can of worms I don't we should open here), I do note that you agree that non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research should not be used at Chiropractic and that there is in fact disagreement in the scientific community about if it is "okay" to use the results of non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research in order to make some conclusion about the efficacy/safety of chiropractic spinal manipulation (semantic debate aside :-). Therefore, would I be correct to assume that you agree that to use non-chiropractic research (performed by non-chiros and makes no specific conclusion about chiropractic) in the Chiropractic article violates OR? -- Levine2112 discuss 06:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Please don't put words into my mouth ("I do note that you agree..."). That's a QG trick. Only research (it matters little who performed it) that explicitly mentions that none or only a small minority of the performers of the spinal manipulation were chiropractors (such studies exist), should be excluded. The Dutch study is one. On a case by case basis I'd need to see the research to be absolutely certain, since we are speaking hypothetically here. Exceptions to my reasoning might occur if I see a definite case that deserves making an exception. -- Fyslee / talk 06:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I apologize. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Only trying to make sure we are on the same page. I just did a poor job explaining it, it would seem. Because what I was trying to say that you agree about is that research about spinal manipulation not performed by chiropractors (such as the Dutch one) should not be used at Chiropractic. This is what you explain just above, yes? If so, I am in agreement with you. I think I had a dangling participle or something further above, so I understand the misunderstanding and I apologize to you for it. So, would you say that the use of such non-chiropractic research (like the Dutch one) at Chiropractic would constitute OR, or would you disallow it based on some other policy? -- Levine2112 discuss 07:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

No problemo

[outdent]

No problemo. I too have difficulty making myself clear at times, especially when dealing with these complex matters. Here are a few thoughts:

  1. If you can find a single study or more about SM (which we have cited) that specifically mentions that none of the participants were chiropractors, it should be disallowed from edits regarding SM at the chiropractic article, but could still be used at the general SM article. So far such a disallowance wouldn't change any conclusions we have written, if I recall correctly. Until now (quite a few months, or is it more than a year now?) you have been trying to disallow all SM research that was not conducted by chiropractors and/or SM research that included others than chiropractors, ostensibly because of concerns about how such allowances could affect the "concerns about safety" discussions we have had. Have you changed your position?
  2. Above you write about "...confounding general spinal manipulation studies with chiropractic effectiveness..." and you cite Paul Shekelle, who scolded chiropractors for doing that. Here you are attempting to use that reasoning when you scold us for doing the opposite, when that hopefully is not the case. Of course "chiropractic effectiveness" is so vague a term that no one on earth should touch the subject with a ten foot pole. Only specific methods can accurately be studied in that manner. (The success of the general chiropractic encounter is another matter, and it should not be used as evidence of the effectiveness of specific chiropractic techniques or specific claims, as it often is. Some chiropractors still haven't learned from Shekelle and try to argue both ways.)
  3. Speaking about the "can of worms" you mention above, any research that reveals facts about chiropractic effectiveness or safety issues is potentially fair game. The di Fabio mega metaanalysis above certainly does that, and so far we aren't using it. We should do so.

-- Fyslee / talk 07:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Eubulides states "Second, we have reliable sources saying that the various names are aliases, and that it's valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from research about spinal manipulation". Where is this reliable source that says it is valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from research about spinal manipulation? I have seen a reliable source state that it was valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from CERTAIN STUDIES on spinal manipulation, but never such a blanket statement. This seems to be a BLATANT misrepresentation of the truth. - DigitalC (talk) 02:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
It is certainly legitimate to ask for a source, but there's no need for such strong words. AGF. Now your words lead me to think of something (which will bring us back to what you state about Eubulides' words). It has often been claimed by chiropractors (and certain editors here) that a spinal adjustment is much more "specific" than a spinal manipulation, but where is the evidence for that claim? Of course the intent is different, in that it is claimed that the adjustment is "specifically" directed at the correction of vertebral subluxations. (IOW what mainstream scientists and skeptics would call manipulating an illusion.) Well, that's the intent, but what about any proven "physical" differences in the specific performance of the techniques? They would normally affect the same structures. (Let's not get bogged down in the obvious differences between widely different adjustment and SM techniques. Adjustment techniques exist which don't even touch the body, yet claim to effect changes in it.)
When directed at the same structure in a specific and identically well-performed manner, is there really any "physical" difference that the body will "notice"? Where is the proof for any "physical" difference, besides what the chiropractor or mainstream performer (and their respective patients) believes? I strongly suspect that only straight chiropractors will maintain that there is a physical difference, hence Eubulides' statement of an equatability between research results, if I am not mistaken. If there is no physical difference in performance and results, and most research deals with that, then the results should normally be comparable and interchangeable, IOW it would be "valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from research about spinal manipulation." An exception is JVSR research, which deals with proposed philosophical and metaphysical differences that are purported to make an (unproven) physical difference. It's a journal that claims to perform "scientific research" on what amounts to an illusion... Well, what is the "physical" difference? -- Fyslee / talk 03:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Meeker & Haldeman (2002) wrote in the Annals of Internal Medicine 137 (8), p. 702, "We agree that many of the randomized trials we described were on spinal manipulation rather than specifically on chiropractic manipulation itself, but we believe that this is not a significant point. Chiropractors use all forms of manipulation. In the United States, more than 90% of all spinal manipulation services are provided by chiropractors, and research on spinal manipulation, like that on any other treatment method, is equally of value regardless of the practitioner providing it." The course of mainstream research since then has followed this principle, without dissent by any reliable source that I know of. Eubulides (talk) 06:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Precisely what I thought. I'll make some emphasis here. "We agree that many of the randomized trials we described were on spinal manipulation rather than specifically on chiropractic manipulation itself, but we believe that this is not a significant point...". The statement that research on spinal manipulation is equally of value regardless of the practitioner providing it does not state that it is valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from research about spinal manipulation. Again, where is this source that states that it is valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from research about spinal manipulation"? - DigitalC (talk) 06:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Meeker & Haldeman are among the most senior and respected DC researchers; it's not our place to second-guess their expert opinion (unless, of course, we have found just-as-reliable sources who disagree; but such is not the case here).
  • The emphasis on the phrase "we described" is misplaced; Meeker & Haldeman's argument is about the principle in general, and although they mention their study their point is not limited to their study. Obviously if research is equally of value regardless of the practitioner, then there's no scientific reason to ignore or discount research simply because of the types of practitioner studied. This point is not controversial among reliable sources these days.
  • The question about "draw conclusions about spinal adjustment" is irrelevant here, as Chiropractic #Evidence basis does not draw conclusions about spinal adjustment. It doesn't even mention spinal adjustment.
Eubulides (talk) 07:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I never said there was a scientific reason to ignore research because of the type of practitioner. However, there is no reason for Chiropractic to cite research that does not mention Chiropractic. Again, where is the source that YOU stated says "that it's valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from research about spinal manipulation". It isn't irrelevant here, because it was a misrepresentation of the facts about the dispute which is being discussed at this noticeboard. - DigitalC (talk) 06:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
  • If there's no scientific reason to ignore such research, then why ignore it? Certainly spinal manipulation is highly relevant to chiropractic; it's chiropractic's core treatment.
  • The dispute seems to be over research that incorporates data from non-chiropractic practitioners along with data from chiropractic practitioners; this is not the same thing as "research that does not mention Chiropractic".
  • I don't see misrepresentation of the facts either in Chiropractic or here.
  • Certainly reliable sources say that "spinal adjustment" and "spinal manipulation" are two names for what is essentially the same thing. For example, Meeker & Haldeman 2002 (PMID 11827498) say, 'The core clinical action that all chiropractors agree upon is spinal manipulation. Chiropractors much prefer the term spinal “adjustment,” reflecting their belief in the therapeutic and health-enhancing effect of correcting spinal joint abnormalities.' This is a difference in terminology, not in substance.
Eubulides (talk) 06:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
  • The reason to ignore such research is the exact reason we are here at WP:NORN. It is original research/a SYN violation to mention general spinal manipulation research under the heading "Chiropractic effectiveness". It is implying a conclusion that this research is related to chiropractic effectiveness, which we DO NOT HAVE A SOURCE FOR.
  • If the source specifically mentions chiropractic, I don't know how there can be dispute.
  • The misrepresentation of the facts here is clear. You stated that we have sources that say ""that it's valid to draw conclusions about spinal adjustment from research about spinal manipulation"", when no such sources have been presented. I have repeatedly asked for such a source, with none being presented. Is this a case of WP:IDHT? Please either present such a source, or strike your comments above.
DigitalC (talk) 02:29, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Umm, I've quoted a reliable source saying spinal adjustment and spinal manipulation are different terms for the same thing. It is certainly valid to draw conclusions about X from research about X; it happens all the time. There is no misrepresentation, either here or in Chiropractic. Eubulides (talk) 03:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Umm, I've quoted sources that say just the opposite. Clearly there is no agreement about this in the scientific community, therefore us drawing conclusions on our own here about chiropractic spinal adjustments from research about non-chiropractic spinal manipulations is OR. -- Levine2112 discuss 15:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what quotes you're talking about. I just now checked the comments in this section, and found no quote in any of your comments that contain the phrase "spinal adjustment". There is a consensus in the mainstream scientific and mainstream chiropractic communities that spinal adjustment and spinal manipulation are two names for the same thing. Again, please see Meeker & Haldeman 2002 (PMID 11827498), which I quoted above. And again, the question about "drawing conclusions on our own here about chiropractic spinal adjustments" is irrelevant here, as Chiropractic #Evidence basis does not draw any conclusions about, or even mention, "chiropractic spinal adjustment", "spinal adjustment", or "chiropractic adjustment". Eubulides (talk) 18:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
See the quote from RAND above which makes it clear that those researchers believe there is a difference between spinal manipulation and chiropractic. There is no scientific consensus as you claim. So yes, by presenting research conclusions about non-chiropractic spinal adjustments in the "Evidence basis" section of the "Chiropractic" article, you are drawing your own conclusions about chiropractic; and thus the OR violation. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
You are confusing the issue by creating a distracting straw man when you state "believe there is a difference between spinal manipulation and chiropractic". We're talking about the difference between "spinal manipulation" and "chiropractic adjustments", not chiropracic itself. You keep switching back and forth when it suits your whim. Please stick to one issue. -- Fyslee / talk 03:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
The RAND quote distinguishes chiropractic from spinal manipulation, but that's a quite different thing. Chiropractic includes many treatment forms, not just spinal manipulation (or if you prefer, "spinal adjustment"). Even if the RAND quote did dispute the mainstream consensus that spinal manipulation and spinal adjustment are two names for the same thing (which it doesn't), that would not affect Chiropractic #Evidence basis, a section that never uses the words "spinal adjustment". Eubulides (talk) 19:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
You're dancing around the obvious here. RAND made the distinction, Terrett made the distinction in JMPT's "Misuse of the literature by medical authors in discussing spinal manipulative therapy injury" and DiFabio notes the difference. It's more than semantics, it's more than philosophical. There is a mechanical difference between the spinal adjustment techniques which chiropractors employ and the spinal manipulations employed by non-chiropractors. But you have found one source which says it was okay for them to confound the two in the particular studies that they looked at and then you claim there must be scientific consensus and therefore we can violate OR by do the same confound with completely different studies. A merely presenting the non-chiropractic studies in the chiropractic article creates the original research violation, no matter if you are careful to call it "manipulation" and not "adjustment". They are not the same thing. However, you are presenting the non-chiropractic manipulation studies as though they were directly relevant to chiropractic. Consider this, in closing, if there isn't a difference between Spinal manipulation and Spinal adjustment, then why have we had the to two distinct articles here at Wikipedia for so long? -- Levine2112 discuss 20:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
You are still confusing the issue. You keep switching back and forth when it suits your whim. Please stick to one issue. RAND wasn't making a comparison between spinal manipulation and chiropractic adjustments.
When you write: "There is a mechanical difference between the spinal adjustment techniques which chiropractors employ and the spinal manipulations employed by non-chiropractors.", you seem to be ignoring my comments above about a physical difference for comparable techniques. You claim there is a mechanical (IOW physical) difference, when the only proven difference is one of belief, philosophy, and intent. When the same technique that is called "spinal manipulation" by non-DCs, and "spinal adjustment" by DCs are compared, just what is the mechanical/physical difference? We are of course talking about HVLA manips/adjustments directed at the same structure in a specific and identically well-performed manner. Is there really any "physical" difference that the body will "notice"? Is there a proven physical difference? I think not. Please provide a RS that proves there is. The WCA, ICA, and F.A.C.E. will of course confirm that there is a difference in intent, and maybe even claim there is a mechanical difference, but where is their proof? -- Fyslee / talk 03:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
This comment mentions two older sources not previously discussed here. The first (Terrett 1995, PMID 7636409) is like the RAND quote: it says that "the words chiropractic and chiropractor commonly appear in the literature to describe SMT, or practitioner of SMT", which is not the dispute here. The dispute here is about "spinal adjustment" versus "spinal manipulation". The second source, Di Fabio 1999 (PMID 9920191) agrees with the mainstream consensus: it analyzes the same data with non-chiropractors both included and excluded, and shows that only a slight difference between the two results and that the overall pattern is the same (see Figure 2, page 54). I expect that Di Fabio's results helped to contribute to the modern mainstream consensus that there's no significant difference between "spinal manipulation" and "spinal adjustment" as far as the evidence basis goes. The presence of a POV fork in Wikipedia, which is what Spinal manipulation and Spinal adjustment are, is not a reliable source for this discussion; Wikipedia is not a reliable source for itself. Eubulides (talk) 21:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Eubulides, you are quite correct. There is no true physical difference. I want to mention a couple points about the two articles comprising the POVFORK. I believe they have a legitimate basis for their existence, since there truly is a significant difference in POV, as well as other important differences. The Spinal adjustment article can go into detail about the philosophical, metaphysical, spiritual, and intent differences, all of which have no relevance to scientific spinal manipulation. Adjustments include many widely varied techniques, many of which have no similarity to HVLA spinal manipulation, some of which don't even use enough force to affect a vertebra or the spinal nerves, or even to touch the body. Adjustments include anything which a chiropractor claims will remove vertebral subluxations, and studying these claims often brings us into the vast and sometimes uncharted territory known as woo woo land, which many scientifically oriented chiropractors abhor and criticize, but which nevertheless are things their colleagues believe and practice, because they inhabit or frequent that land. The "adjustment" article can deal with those issues. If the two articles were to be merged, they would need their own separate sections. BTW, I notice that the Spinal adjustment article needs some serious cleaning up. There are improperly formatted refs and use of simple numbers as refs, as well as cites of studies that include spinal manipulation. -- Fyslee / talk 04:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Your analysis continues to be flawed and you have yet to support your claim that there is "scientific consensus" that there is a 1:1 comparison between chiropractic spinal adjustments and non-chiropractic spinal manipulation. Just because you repeat that there is a "scientific consensus" over and over and over again, does not make it so. Thus far, you have found one source which says it is okay for those researchers to confound specific non-chiropractic research with a chiropractic conclusion. I see no consensus, only continued original research on your part. Here are a few other sources: This one discusses the practical differences between chiropractors, osteopaths and PTSs [1]. This one discussed the efficacy difference between chiropractic and physical therapy [2]. Remember the obvious here, chiropractors use a whole range of specialized techniques, diagnosis, and instruments to adjust the spine which non-chiropractic spinal manipulators do not employ. How can there be a 1:1 comparison? Finally, if you think Spinal adjustment is a POVFork of Spinal manipulation then you should nominate for deletion. However, in terms of Wikipedia consensus, there is currently a recognized difference between spinal adjustment and spinal manipulation which warrants the need for two distinct articles. -- Levine2112 discuss 21:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
As a general rule, there is a 1:1 comparison between the two terms as used in most research. Terminology is the point. Any claimed physical differences are not the point. (You haven't yet provided proof of such a physical difference, but given time ((since I have just asked for it above)) I hope you will enlighten us.) The terminology is used interchangeably by chiropractic and non-chiropractic researchers for HVLA manips/adjustments, regardless of the performer, or what the performer calls them. That's the point.
Exceptions to the general rule will be found in ultra-straight literature. That's the only place where there is any consistency, since they make it a point of pride to identify themselves by the "purity" of their adherance to doctrine. They are known as "principled" chiropractors. If your belief and point is about "who" performs it, then you will likely concede that a "manipulation", if performed by a chiropractor, is an "adjustment". In that case, di Fabio and others have proven that "adjustments" can and do injure and kill people. -- Fyslee / talk 04:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I have provided so many examples of how there is no consensus that there is a 1:1 comparison now, that it is disheartening that you are choosing to ignore these. How about two more? The first comes from your beloved Ernst who points out the inherent weakness of using non-chiropractic RCTs to conclude anything about chiropractic spinal adjustments. [3] The second comes from the renowned Manga report which stated that there is evidence that "spinal manipulations are less safe and less effective when performed by non-chiropractic professionals".[4] If there is a 1:1 comparison, why are they less safe and less effective when performed by non-chirorpactors... such as PTs? The point here is not whether I'm right and You're wrong, or vice-versa. At this point in history, there is no definitive answer and thus there certainly is no consensus about there being a 1:1 relationship between chiropractic spinal adjustments and non-chiropractic spinal manipulation in terms of efficacy. Some researchers say there is, some say there is not. We just don't know definitively for sure at this point. And since we at Wikipedia cannot take sides, we therefore cannot take non-chiropractic spinal manipulation RCTs and use their data to draw our own conclusions about chiropractic. Doing so is a textbook violation of WP:OR. We can, however, use non-chiropractic studies which researchers have specifically applied to make some statement about chiropractic, provided that we put it in context for our readers. (P.S. I agree with you that the Spinal adjustment article is in need of some serious clean-up, though I am trepidatious about moving in there at this point, if you can understand.) -- Levine2112 discuss 05:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Terminology is the point here, not efficacy or safety. Save that for another day.
I did ask for sources that prove a physical difference, ergo an anatomical and physiological difference, or as you worded it, a "mechanical" difference. I'd like to see an anatomical analysis of such differences. Would the body know the difference? Is there any way to measure the difference? -- Fyslee / talk 06:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
That's obvious. If efficacy and safety differs, there must be a physical difference. Unless you want to attribute the different effect on the human body to the intention of the practitioner. :-) Not a very scientific way of thinking though. -- Levine2112 discuss 07:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
That's not so obvious, without engaging in OR. If we actually had some blinded studies that directly compared (in the same study) physical differences, we'd be a bit closer, but it still wouldn't be good enough since it would measure outcomes, not solely any physical differences. Actual studies which examine the anatomical and biomechanical factors involved, showing actual measurable differences in the performance, not the outcomes, is what's needed here. Different people doing studies in different ways will come up with different outcome results, and they have, not all of which are as favorable as the one you have cherry picked. And yes, the well-known "chiropractic encounter", often involving the use of what they call "scripts" (which among experienced practice builders amounts to mental manipulation), will indeed affect the perceived outcomes, independently of the actual technique, or rather as an added factor that affects those perceptions. I have asked for sources that prove a physical/mechanical difference, and I'd like to see them without any OR. You claim there is a mechanical difference, and I'd like to see the sources you are using to make such a claim without any backward-pointing inferences. I'm sure that straight chiropractic sources make such claims, and I wouldn't mind seeing them as well. -- Fyslee / talk 13:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually I think that the outcome being different means that the manipulation itself must have been different. I'm surprised you don't agree, being - like me - a scientific skeptic. Anyhow, the one making the claim is the one who stated that there is always a direct 1:1 comparison between chiropractic adjustments and non-chiropractic manipulation in terms of research. Yet, he has provided just one source in which the chiropractic researchers said it was okay for those researchers to use the results of just a couple of specific non-chiropractic studies in order for them to draw a conclusion about chiropractic. Despite only having this one source, this proponent has declared that there is a scientific consensus to confound chiropractic and non-chiropractic research in this manner. On the other hand, I have provided several sources now which discuss the differences in chiropractic and non-chiropractic manipulation and why we should not confound research about the two. Clearly, there is no consensus. Thus, if we confound in the article, we would be (and are) engaging in OR. As for Fyslee's claim that I am engaging in OR by claiming that non-chiropractic and chiropractic are not comparable - well, you are right - but only just as right as me stating that Eubulides is engaging in OR by claiming that non-chiropractic and chiropractic are directly comparable. The point is: we don't know for sure because there is no consensus out there, and in fact, there is much disagreement. Thus, we can't choose a side without engaging in OR. -- Levine2112 discuss 16:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not getting the sources I asked for to back up Levine2112's claim that there is a "mechanical" difference:
  • "There is a mechanical difference between the spinal adjustment techniques which chiropractors employ and the spinal manipulations employed by non-chiropractors." - Levine2112
So much for asking for evidence to back up such an unusual claim. Even straight chiropractic sources should be available to back up that one! I wonder what Marcello Truzzi would say about this failure to back up a claim? I give up. Let's move on. -- Fyslee / talk 02:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
There are abundant sources which I have provided now. Still no sources stating that there is no physical difference. So the failure to back up the claim is all yours, I am afraid. Pity really. -- Levine2112 discuss 05:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 ??? Don't reverse the burden of proof. The burden is on you, not me. Your statement is a combination of straw man and red herring logical fallacy. I have not asked for a source "stating that there is no physical difference", but a source stating that there is a physical difference in an anatomical and biomechanical sense as regards the performance of the manipulation/adjustment. Your refusal to provide even one source is beginning to make me wonder about my memory. I'm pretty sure I've read straight chiropractic sources that make such claims, but if you can't or won't find them, then we're left with nothing to back up your claim at all, not even a poor source. Hmmm .... maybe the only place I've heard such a claim was from you. Are we really on a wild goose chase, searching for a non-existent source to back up your personal belief? -- Fyslee / talk 06:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I am continuing this thread in the next section. Eubulides (talk) 18:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Vickers & Zollman etc.

Levine2112 now brings up more sources, but these new sources support the mainstream position, not the fringe position that there is an important distinction between spinal adjustment and spinal manipulation from the point of view of the evidence basis.

  • Vickers and Zollman 1999 (PMID 10541511) use, in their evidence basis section for chiropractic and osteopathy, the same sort of systematic reviews that Chiropractic is using now. For example, they cite Koes, Assendelft et al. 1996 (PMID 9112710). Chiropractic cites an updated version of that review, namely Assendelft et al. 2004 (PMID 14973958).
  • Skargren et al. 1998 (PMID 9762745) studied chiropractic care versus physiotherapy, not chiropractic spinal manipulation versus physiotherapeutic spinal manipulation, so their comparison is not directly relevant to our dispute about SM versus SA. That being said, their main conclusion was that the two types of care showed "equal health improvement and total cost between the two groups 12 months after initial treatment". There were some relatively minor differences in some subgroups, but overall this study has helped to lead to the modern mainstream consensus that the difference between the two types of practitioners is not important when studying the evidence basis for spinal manipulation. and that is how Skargren et al. is cited in many later reviews (e.g., Assendelft et al. 2003, PMID 12779297).
  • Ernst 2003 (PMID 12782542) does say that recent (as of 2003) assessment of the data indicate some benefit for spinal manipulation for back pain (which is what Chiropractic #Evidence basis says now), but that if we limit ourselves to older studies, back when the "spinal manipulation" versus "spinal adjustment" issue was still a live one, then 'The only systematic review of exclusively chiropractic spinal manipulation concluded that "the available RCTs provided no convincing evidence of the effectiveness of chiropractic for acute or chronic low back pain".' Here Ernst is referring to Assendelft et al. 1996 (PMID 8902660), which I suspect is the latest systematic review available under the old assumption that the distinction between chiropractic and non-chiropractic spinal manipulation was an important one.
  • It would be interesting to see what ancient source the Manga report (1993) is citing when it says "There is also some evidence in the literature to suggest that spinal manipulations are less safe and less effective when performed by non-chiropractic professionals." Certainly more-recent and presumably higher-quality studies, such as Skargren et al., have failed to confirm any such broad conclusion.
  • Given these old citations, I am willing to concede that there was some concern about chiropractic versus non-chiropractic data among reliable sources until the mid 1990s. However, the results by di Fabio and others appear to have allayed that concern. The modern mainstream consensus, as expressed Meeker & Haldeman 2002 (PMID 11827498), is that any differences between "spinal manipulation" and "spinal adjustment" are not significant from an evidence basis viewpoint.
  • Levine writes that Fyslee stated "there is always a direct 1:1 comparison between chiropractic adjustments and non-chiropractic manipulation in terms of research". Fyslee didn't write that; he added qualifiers. I have also added qualifiers; the point is that there's no important difference between the two, as far as evidence basis goes.
  • The "just one source" I have provided, namely Meeker & Haldeman 2002 (PMID 11827498), was written by two of the most-respected DC researchers today, and we know of no reliable source that has seriously disputed their claim. And it's not just this source: modern reviews and guidelines, written by mainstream chiropractors, also employ this assumption. Just one example: the 2007 CCGPP literature synthesis of chiropractic management of low back pain, a document written by and for chiropractors, cites sources derived from non-chiropractic data. For example, it cites Aure et al. 2003 (PMID 12642755) to support manual therapy for low back pain, even though Aure et al. specifically disallowed chiropractic manipulation! Surely you remember that example? We discussed it in Talk:Chiropractic/Archive 24 #Syn tag, a discussion that we are mostly just repeating here, albeit with the added entertainment of dusting off obsolescent 1990s sources.
  • In short, these old citations underscore the fact that any serious doubt about this issue was resolved a decade or more among reliable sources; Chiropractic should reflect the current mainstream consensus.

Eubulides (talk) 18:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Vickers & Zollman are not bound by the same policies Wikipedia editors are, such as WP:OR & WP:SYN. What they do has no relevance here.
  • The source that you have provided (Meeker & Haldeman 2002), does NOT make a blanket statement that it is valid to use research on spinal manipulation that does not discuss chiropractors, when discussing chiropractic spinal manipulation. Again, modern researchers are not bound by WP:OR, in fact they are supposed to be performing original research—Wikipedia editors are not.
  • Chiropractic needs to use verifiable sources that state this concensus. None have been presented. It is again original research to state that this concensus exists, without having a source to back that up.
DigitalC (talk) 23:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I mentioned Vickers & Zollman only because Levine2112 brought it up. I expect Levine2112 thought it was relevant.
  • I have provided sources other than Meeker & Haldeman. The sources I have provided are recent and establish the modern consensus. Chiropractic should not be edited according to the standards of 1993, back when there were still serious questions about this issue among reliable sources.
  • No evidence has been presented here that Chiropractic #Evidence basis uses "research on spinal manipulation that does not discuss chiropractors, when discussing chiropractic spinal manipulation". It would be difficult to present such evidence, as Chiropractic #Evidence basis never mentions the phrase "chiropractic spinal manipulation". It consistently uses the phrase "spinal manipulation" to describe spinal manipulation.
  • Again, Meeker & Haldeman are a reliable source on this point, and we know of no reliable source disputing their basic point, which is that spinal manipulation and spinal adjustment are two names for what is the same thing, as far as the evidence basis goes.
Eubulides (talk) 06:21, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Yep. That just about says it all. I think it is time to weed out all of the OR from this section in the article and see if it is a version which we can all live with. Agreed? -- Levine2112 discuss 00:10, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Far from it. There is no shadow of a consensus, only plenty of stonewalling, albeit no doubt in good faith. Even good faith discussions can constitute a considerable disruption to editing the chiropractic article. -- Fyslee / talk 02:13, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the stonewalling is from the tiny minority of editors who refuse to recognize their WP:OR violation. It's time to end this by removing the violating text. -- Levine2112 discuss 05:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
There never was any OR violation and it is time for the SYN tag to be removed. Every sentence is well sourced and accurate. QuackGuru 05:31, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree with QuackGuru that the SYN tag should be removed. All that's happened here is that the same dispute is being reaired, with the same editors. Calamitybrook, the one uninvolved editor who weighed in, said that the WP:SYN objection "is far too narrow to be reasonable, and even taken at its face value, is invalid." Coppertwig, a relatively-neutral editor, also thought the SYN tag should go. It's time to move on. Eubulides (talk) 06:21, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. It's time to remove the tag and move on. (and please, QuackGuru, don't do it yourself...) -- Fyslee / talk 06:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Another misrepresentation by Eubulides when he states "Calamitybrook, the one uninvolved editor who weighed in". Surturz could hardly be called an involved editor when he "weighed in" here. He had no prior involvement in the dispute, and had only 3 edits recently to Talk:Chiropractic#Vaccination section must go. - DigitalC (talk) 02:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Levine2112 recruited Surturz to this page after Surturz had jumped in at Chiropractic by tagging Chiropractic#Vaccination with {{POV-section}}, and had made several comments on Talk:Chiropractic strongly criticizing the section on WP:POV grounds.[5][6][7] This hardly counts as an "uninvolved editor".
  • I was hoping that Levine2112 would mention this recruitment, but I see now that he has made further comments in this thread without discussing it.
  • In the light of all this, it is not "misrepresentation" to describe Calamitybrook as the only uninvolved editor.
  • Surturz's initial focus on POV concerns strongly suggests that the underlying dispute here is a POV dispute, not a SYN dispute.
Eubulides (