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This notice board is provided so that editors can ask for advice about material that might be original research (OR) or original synthesis.

The policy that governs the issue of original research is Wikipedia: No original research (WP:NOR). It says: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." For questions about the policy itself, please go to WT:NOR.

Please post new topics in a new section. When a thread is closed, you can tag it with {{resolved}}.

Archives

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Contents 1 Hundred Days' Reform 2 OR? 3 Yamashita's gold 4 Dispensationalist Theology 5 List of national four-country border sets 6 Bump mapping (sixth generation consoles) 7 Acid throwing 8 Racism faced by Bihari people in India 9 Is citing research that contradicts the claim of a Fringe theory WP:SYN? 10 Alzheimer's article can't cite dementia papers? 11 Editor(s) arguing over which is the best translation. 12 Bishōnen 13 Cyberformance 14 Samples 15 WP:OR/WP:SYN Diagrams at Subprime mortgage crisis 16 Same-sex marriage 17 Indo-Aryan loanwords in Tamil 18 Luzon Empire and Ancient Tondo 19 Wikinews being used as a source for UFO sightings 20 Mental health promotion 21 Christian Zionism in the United Kingdom 22 Akbar the Great 23 Stock market bottom 24 Solar energy 25 Anti-Stalinist left

Hundred Days' Reform

The Hundred Days' Reform page references Lei Chiasheng as having a new (2004) theory explaining motives for the Empress Dowager's response to the Reform. I have a suspicion that this is OR, but I don't know much so I want to defer to more experienced editors. A google search for "Lei Chia sheng" returns only 5 hits, all in Chinese (searching "Lei Chiasheng" similarly returns 6 hits).

Agreed. I've been trying to argue for more clarity and better sources but the person who posted doesn't seem to understand my objection and keep citing a source that we can't read because it's in Chinese. Can someone please intervene in this matter? Please see the relevant discussions here. -Comatose51 (talk) 04:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

OR?

The Anon IP keeps adding information[1] which just goes to a flight page which I see as WP:OR since it's not a press release and just because there is more flights that you can chose from doesn't make it reliable since there is no press releases about the changes of flights. Bidgee (talk) 16:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

This was posted in the AN page but I've moved it here. Bidgee (talk) 03:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, OR policy does allow for the descriptive use of primary sources in the event that a non-specialist reader can easily verify that the Wikipedia text has correctly described the contents of the primary source. So, we could do without press releases if we could link to flight information tables which clearly showed an increase to double-daily service starting in October (as I believe is the issue here). However, the link provided by the anon does not provide clear primary-source information, but rather makes you search it out yourself. I went through myself to check the information, and while it does appear to be true, there's no good way to link to the results. Since it does not appear possible to supply an easy link to primary information (in this case, flight info tables) clearly confirming the added Wikipedia content, I would say that, yup, the added content runs afoul of OR policy. Mr. IP 《Defender of Open Editing》 09:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Are you seriously arguing that statements that are verifiable and true, and that you yourself have verified to be so, should still be deleted because some hypothetical reader might not be able to verify it? I think the principle should be interpreted as, if you are a non-specialist yourself, and you have been able to verify it, then the source is good. lk (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Yamashita's gold

In the Yamashita's gold article, an editor makes dubious claims that several court documents lend credence to their opinion of events. The wording is twisted and skewed, at best, to advance the editor’s point of view. There are no independent third-party sources that support these opinions.

The article is a mish-mash of legal piffle, and the talk-page is a battlefield of redundancy

Yamashita's_gold#Related_legal_action

I guess my question is this an OR issue, or POV issue? Jim (talk) 08:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

JimBob, I would say that the use of a primary source here is legitimate, as the paragraph appears (based only on skimming) to be an accurate summary of the court case whose text is used as a source — so I wouldn't really say it's OR, with the exception of this statement: Thus, there has been a judicial finding based upon substantial evidence that at least some portion of Yamashita's gold was found.. That statement should ideally be backed by secondary sourcing.

However, yeah, there's definitely a POV issue and general issues with the balance of the article and the integration of the information. This section does little to inform the reader about the larger subject of Yamashita's gold, and opens many questions that it does not answer. More than anything, there are context issues with this section, I think. Mr. IP 《Defender of Open Editing》 13:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

___________

The statement: Thus, there has been a judicial finding based upon substantial evidence that at least some portion of Yamashita's gold was found has been removed and replaced with a quote directly from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal. The section in dispute concerns a lawsuit. The best source as to what transpired in the lawsuit are the official statements of the Court -- the official history of the lawsuit. The statements of the Court are clear (to anyone who can read) and are consistent with the contemporaneous news reports (which are also reliable sources). JimBob has some vested interest in the theory that Yamashita's Gold is an urban legend and resists any material that debunks his pet theory. The sources are irrefutable that Roxas prevailed on his claim against Marcos for converting the treasure.

No discussion of Yamashita's treasure would be complete without a discussion of Roxas' claim that he found the treasure and had it stolen by Marcos. The article would be misleading in its attempt to relegate Yamashita's treasure to an urban myth when some of the highest courts in our country have already recognized the legitimacy of Roxas' claim.

67.120.59.46 (talk) 20:25, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Dispensationalist Theology

I think that maybe I goofed up here: a couple of years ago, I posted some arguments in Dispensationalist Theology, under the section entitled "Biblical arguments in favor of dispensationalism". I had pulled this from an early version of a paper I had written; I had submitted a later version for publication in a book. This book is about to be published, and since it will be copyrighted, I think I need to remove my posting. Do I need to get permission for this? Brwebb (talk) 03:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me try to address both prongs of the question, copyright and OR. Since the text is original research, you may remove it at any time, though it will be best to leave an explanation on the talk page, as this sounds like a large chunk of text. Once the book has been published, you may want to think about re-adding a summarized version of the material, just to enrich the page, as it will no longer be OR at that point. Alternately, you could leave the current version in place, for reasons explained below.

As to copyright, I can't give you any 100% solid answers, but I believe the policy as stated here is that the original version as submitted to Wikipedia would remain under the GFDL copyleft license even after removal, as it was originally promulgated under that license. You continue to hold the right to republish and relicense the material, but the GFDL license on the original version cannot be retracted. Employing a traditional copyright for the new version of the material is non-problematic, per the GFDL.

As for having to remove it, you don't have to if you don't want to — while the new version will be traditionally copyrighted, the old version is perpetually under GFDL and thus not a copyvio. Since it is unpublished original research, it does go against policy...but it's about to be published, so it's borderline and will soon be acceptable under the "Citing oneself" clause of OR policy. Do you want the text removed, or are you just worried that it has to be?

If any of this needs clarification, or you find any of it acceptable, I suggest an e-mail to the OTRS system. Mr. IP 《Defender of Open Editing》 06:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

List of national four-country border sets

Hi, could someone have a look at this article please?

Essentially, it's a list of instances where you have four countries, each of which has a border with each of the other three. The sources listed are the CIA World Factbook and a list of three-letter country codes. There are no references per se, but quite a lot of footnotes.

My concern with the article is that the CIA World Factbook does not appear to contain such a list. IMO the information given on the article is not sufficiently obvious from a map (or a list of land-border lengths) that we can consider it not to be OR. Indeed, I managed to find three such sets that the original author left off and I'm not sure there aren't more. OTOH, I feel that this is the sort of thing where we should be able to find a definitive list - I just haven't found one.

I have been discussing this on the talk page, and the person I'm discussing with rather feels that such a list is not needed. He feels that these cases are obvious enough from looking at a map, or a list of border lengths, that the article is not OR.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Pfainuk talk 12:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Reading through the talk page, it seems that you, I and Amorim Parga would all like to keep and improve this interesting article, so that's a start. My view is as follows:

• The basic practice of compiling a list of four-country border sets is acceptable even without secondary sourcing, because the individual examples are easily and indisputably verifiable by an educated non-expert editor on the basis of a primary source.
• The potential for missing examples does not on its own render the practice original research. That is, although a reader could not easily verify that the list is 100% complete, individual examples can all be easily verified.
• The diagrams are acceptable per OR image policy.
• What really needs secondary sourcing here is the terminology. For all I know, terms like "four-country border sets" and "triclave" and so on are in common usage. But until this is established through secondary sourcing, we should change some of the terms around to avoid problems with neologisms and original synthesis.

I will be happy to help improve this article; feel free to leave a message on my talk. Mr. IP 《Defender of Open Editing》 15:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

(I'm not indenting my comment because sometimes they get just too indented) As Pfainuk has commented, I don't feel as needed an instance of this list published somewhere else. Mr. IP has stated some reasons for this. Another one is that this list, because of the huge amount of data which needs to be checked (all of the border pairs in the world) and the fact that this data is constantly changing (e.g. a set disappeared with the recent Montenegrin independence), because of this updating the list in question works pretty well in a collaborative, online work environment... like Wikipedia :) I'm gonna post some comments on the talk page, too. Amorim Parga (talk) 02:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Bump mapping (sixth generation consoles)

Nearly all of the Bump mapping (sixth generation consoles) article looks like original research (quite apart fromthe turgid writing). It's possible that maybe I don't get it -- but is there someone who can take a look and advise about what should be done with the article? Thanks. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 02:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

first step is to look for additional sources. DGG (talk) 03:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Forget that. That article is full of nonsense. I took a grad class in 3D graphics. Moving to AfD. More kids will hate me. VasileGaburici (talk) 04:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The article was merely against traditionalist's pride based views, there were enough resources to say that the most important view changing facts were accurate. If you did not agree, then you don't believe your own eyes, deeper analysis or think the stupid lies about hardware, coming from bull crap hardwired only traditionalists. They are not fact, their coding is the equivelant to an art program with effect buttens. Ps2's GL is from scratch and therefore unlimited in design respectfull to it's ops in the realm of GFX, other traditionalists want to beleive it is emulation, yet they don't even emulate a coding architecture. Merely they do the math from scratch and once again...yep, effect butten style coding is all the other is. PERIOD.

VasileGaburici...though you went to a class, did it try to tell you the truth on height mapping (how you merely need to deepen the contrast for a similar look, yet costs less ops then normal mapping), or how hardwiring is full of nasty redundant repetition and waists the consumers money when buying all these under used, unoptimized Graphics cards. No, as they are not to the level of programming and design. Sorry, but your classes are filled with limited knowledge. Your class is merely telling you how to code it or other, IT IS NOT THE SAME SUBJECT OF WHAT THEY ARE. Remeber that like that class, many tuts on the web are not done in a manner of basic fact of what really is going on, usually they merely tell you what it does by looks, telling how they make them 3d-ish and what not. Zoom in, and you'll see that even normal mapping, under low class lighting, still exists and YES WORKS WITH BLOCKY SHADING (HitMan:BM). Phong is beleived to be something it's not, sorry everyone, other resources reveal that it uses a texture map and is only for interpolation of blockyness. ALL HARDWARE ELETIST ARE IMMATURE PROGRAMMING FRAUDS AND ARE A NATURAL FANBOY. They all deserve to be bannished from this realm of computer arts forever for their years of limited facts missleading people into thinking the effects are that great.--BobtheVila (talk) 23:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, does a PC need much much more requirments due to it's multitasking architecture? Boy, cause xbox has any extra texture or RAM compression that it uses (sniker). The answer is yes, yes it does. The PC software cannot be trusted as a fair comparison with hardware.--BobtheVila (talk) 23:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Acid throwing

Could people comment here? Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 21:41, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe the NOR argument is, we have sources about acid attacks in countries X, Y, and Z, which happen to be in South Asia, but it is a SYNTH to extrapolate that to say it is a South Asian problem. Maybe so, but there are reliable souces that specificially address it being a recent problem in Bangladesh. I remember viewing a tragic report on one of the TV newsmagazines about it, it was 20/20 or Dateline or 60 Minutes, maybe 5-8 years ago. However, the prevalence in that part of the world could simply be a result of sulfuric acid being readily accessible. On the other hand, many years ago these acid attacks were a problem in the Western world, and I've read books set in the Victorian era that had a "vitrioleuse" character, which is exactly what it sounds like. Googling that term should yield enough material to globalize the article. The article needs to be globalized; splitting it would simply result in a POV trap. Squidfryerchef (talk) 01:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this is on the right track - but it points to at least one major problem: the article provides primary source information from many countries to claim that there is an international problem, but no secondary source actually discusses it, the only secondary source discusses one country, so there is at least some SYNTH issues. We need a wider variety of esitors to look at this and comment, people who are not invested in the article, but who are committed to WP policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The "south Asia" remark is sourced to "Loss of face: violence against women in South Asia", which does seem to support the main claim about South Asia. There is apparent instance of OR, however, when talking about attacks elsewhere: "While less common than in South Asia". I fact-tagged this and will comment on the talk page. Eubulides (talk) 17:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Its likely that many secondary sources are out there that discuss it as a regional issue. I'd suggest starting off with the BBC, which has a decent understanding of the region, and whose reports are easily accessible online. Referring to the region as "South Asia" is not a SYNTH but simply the most accurate way to summarize the issue. We have it being a particular problem in Bangladesh, some reports of it in India and Pakistan, all countries traditionally considered part of "South Asia", and a few reports of it happening in Iran and Cambodia, which are "exceptions that prove the rule", on the cusp of what's considered South Asia.
• The While less common than in South Asia clause should be replaced with Acid throwing is not unknown in other regions of the world. This phrasing keeps the perspective but doesn't imply anything beyond what the cited sources say. That section should also cover 19th-century Europe.
• Finally, while I don't think such a serious article should have a trivia section, if we are to have one it could include the Sopranos episode D-Girl, where one character recounts a rumored acid-throwing incident from the past, and may be a useful juxtaposition to the factual 1950s incident in NYC discussed earlier on the page. Squidfryerchef (talk) 04:40, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Racism faced by Bihari people in India

The title of this article has kept changing but the OR has largely remained the same. Its this - there purportedly is a "anti-Bihari sentiment" going round in India. Never mind the fact that Biharis enjoy the same rights under the Indian constitution as everyone else and weild political power far in excess of several other states combined. I looked, but I couldnt find one citation in the whole article that made the assertion but the "causes" for the said sentiment can be found synthesised here anyway.

Now since they just proved that there is such a sentiment, if we would only be so kind as to help them right wrongs (even if only imaginary) and fight injustice on Wikipedia - even if it flew in the face of WP:OR, WP:SYN, WP:POV and such other perfectly negotiable policies. Sarvagnya 19:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I am still not sure if the title is appropriate though I decided to give up fighting for a change after persistent resistance from the initial author of the article. However, there are plenty of reliable references in the article which details violence and descrimination against Biharis.

The article is not about whether Biharis have equal or more rights under Indian constitution. However, I admit that this is an important assertion which needs to be made in the article. It would be also appropriate to add "that Biharis wield political power far in excess of several other states combined" as mentioned by User Sarvagnya with citations from reliable sources.Docku^Hi 20:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

We are trying (since very recently) to improve articles related to Bihar on wikipedia and also to write new articles to cover all aspects related to Bihar. Our key concern is correctness of informations and also protection of correct informations. Discrimination faced by Biharis in India is an issue and the sole purpose of the article is to provide information related to it. I disagree that it's an original research. There are many news articles , papers and books to support it. It might be appropriate to place an under construction tag for some time. Manoj nav (talk) 12:18, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The term 'Anti-Bihari sentiments' might appear synthesised from the sources which discuss about violence and discrimination faced by Biharis in India. Discrimination/Racism is a better term to describe what Biharis faces, instead of exploring and making conclusion about the sentiments, which drive these violences. Keeping this in mind, it would be appropriate to title the article - 'Discrimination faced by Biharis in India' or something similar. Manoj nav (talk) 15:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I have disagreed with the current title in the past here. Manoj nav (talk) 12:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if the references support descrimination as well. They support violence for sure. Docku^Hi 13:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The discussion here talks about references which supports racism and descrimination. Manoj nav (talk) 15:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Considering it more carefully and sharing the similar sentiments of User:Sarvagnya, I have questions to Manoj. Well, I agree that section Causes are referenced and independently verifiable and the same is true with violence against the migrants in various parts of India. The issue is not a question of verifiability. I have no problem with that.

However, what is really missing is reliable sources which discuss the link between the violence and the causes. Without such reliable sources, claiming that violence against the migrants was caused by the causes listed (historical, social, cultural and economical) is original research. I hope I conveyed the message well to you. DockuHi 14:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Causes with Violence

Hi Docku

I dont know if you read all the references, but pls read

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/showcolumns.aspx?id=COLEN20080042337 > Looks at causes of the violence (cultural, economic).

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Raj_to_India_Inc_80_jobs_for_Marathis/articleshow/2939094.cms > Links economic causes with the violence in Maharashtra

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=35469&d=23&m=11&y=2003&pix=opinion.jpg&category=Opinion > M J Akbar links history, cultural with the violence

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=7737db7e-a9b5-4d88-802f-3afaff0985d4&&Headline=The+EMBhaiyya+%2fEMEffect&strParent=strParentID

"All this contributes to the lack of regard for UP and Bihar in many parts of India. In Bangalore, a few years ago, a successful software executive told me that he had compiled a growth rate for south India and that it exceeded China's. "It is UP and Bihar that let us down," he said. Such sentiments are common. The face of India that we show to the world — hi-tech, Bollywood-glitzy and super-educated — has nothing to do with UP and Bihar. For many Indians, the two states have become an embarrassment." links growth rates to resenment and prejudice

Current situation and comparison with Racism "The roots of Raj Thackeray's attack on the Bhaiyyas lie in India's economic transformation. Through a combination of poor planning and worse politics, Bihar and UP have been left out of the economic revolution. When people from those states travel outside to find work, those who have benefited from the recent prosperity treat them with the kind of snobbery and disdain with which the British treated Indians when we went to England to find employment in the 1950s. Then, we were seen as losers from a place that would never manage to prosper.But, of course, Indians ignored the racism and rose to the top of the economic pyramid. And eventually, India shed its old image and went from being perceived as an underdeveloped wasteland to becoming an emerging superpower. It may be too optimistic to hope that something similar will happen to UP and Bihar. But we need to recognise that the disdain with which we treat the two states is both unfair and unnecessary. And the rulers of UP and Bihar need also to realise that there "

---

Adding a line to differnetiate with previous unsigned statements.--Deepak D'Souza 09:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I have been opposed to this article from its nomiation for deletion. The recurring problems , arguments and renamings all stem from one single point. It is original research. Period. None of the sources mentioned ever said that Biharis face racism. Instead most references are articles that mention that Biharis have been attacked here and there or that xyz has made an adverse or threatening comment against Biharis.

As pointed by Sarvagnya, this article is largely WP:SYNTH. Take the above paragraph. The article(written by a reputed journalist) taken as a source compares the situation faced by Bihari migrants to that of Indians in the UK decades ago. The writer of the above message claims that 1)Indians faced racism from Whites. 2)the author of the article has compared the situation with Bihari migrants today. Hence by associativity, what Biharis face today is also "racism". This is pure synthesis.

Biharis belong to the same race as 75% of Indians. The people who allegedly "discriminate against them racially" also largely belong to the same race. So how can it be racism?

The article has become a soapbox where a disgruntled Biharis are venting their frustrations against the "rest of India".

Biharis arent the only ones who have seen discrimination on geographic grounds. Every ethnic group that has migrated somewhere has had to face this. Never mind that Biharis too indulge in the very same actions that they complain of. Recently Laloo Yadav made a comment against Kannadigas. Of course like every good politician he denied it. What about the attack and molestation of athletes from the North east that took place in Bihar 4-5 years back? Should I list some of the slurs and jibes commonly used by people from the Hindi belt against others? Will I be justified in making an article titled "Racism by Biharis against non-Biharis" in the same tone as this article? --Deepak D'Souza 09:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Is citing research that contradicts the claim of a Fringe theory WP:SYN?

Are references to research that contradict the claims made by a fringe theory Synthesis if the research papers did not explicitly seek to disprove the fringe theory?

Hypothetical: Group F Theory claims that "eating fat reduces heart attacks". Is inserting research from mainstream sources that eating fat increases heart attacks synthesis, since the research does not "refer directly to the topic of the article", that is Group F Theory?

I bring this up because on the page Austrian Business Cycle Theory, a theory that claims that business cycles are caused by central banks' manipulation of the money supply, I have inserted material about how mainstream economists have found that central banks' manipulation of the money supply have reduced the severity of business cycles. I am being reverted by someone who claims that this is WP:OR since the papers do not directly address Austrian Business Cycle Theory.

I argue that since the article Austrian Business Cycle Theory is about Business Cycles, the mainstream research on business cycles is obviously relevant. He argues that insertion of any material is Synthesis if the research papers do not explicitly seek to disprove the Austrian Business Cycle Theory.

lk (talk) 04:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Technically, yes. WP:SYNTHESIS is somewhat contentious, but it is one that many of us had to swallow despite its sometimes absurd conclusions. You might make a case that we should ignore the rule in this case, since there are certainly a lot more questionable things around, but I don't think you'll get consensus. I'm sure that a mainstream economist has made this point -- we just need to find it. II | (t - c) 04:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

In my recent RfA I had a question dealing with something similar. I suggested that just as we have NPOV tags, etc., we have a tag saying "'This article provides no scientific evidence for the existence of X'" or something similar. This seems one way to cope with situations where the main experts in the field have ignored a fringe argument. Doug Weller (talk) 05:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

lk's argument is correct in theory: It's not a WP:SYN violation unless "the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article" (that's a quote from WP:SYN). If the core of a fringe theory directly contradicts mainstream economics, that's directly relevant. However, this particular case of inserted material does contain SYN violations of a different sort. First, it says "many economists believe" but it merely cites 3 economists. You need to cite a source saying "many economists believe"; it is SYN to just cite 3 economists and conclude this means "many" (of course, you shouldn't fix this by citing 4, or 40 economists; either reword or find a source to support the claim). Second, and more important, the edit says "The Austrian school's theory claims that business cycles are caused by central banks' manipulation of the money supply. However," but I expect that the cited sources do not support this claim (they do not support the "However", since they don't contrast the Austrian school's theory to mainstream theory; nor do they support any claim about the Austrian school). Eubulides (talk) 05:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

That Austrian theory claims that "business cycles are caused by central banks" isn't disputed and can easily be cited. So, if I get rid of the "many economists believe", would that make it ok? I can't believe that the mere word "however" is WP:SYN, I cite for that Wikipedia:UCS ;) lk (talk) 07:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't quite parse that. But yes, getting rid of "many economists believe" would fix one of the specific problems I noted. I suspect the containing sentence would have to be reworded though. Eubulides (talk) 07:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

You are presenting opinion of those economists as a criticism of the Austrian school. If such criticism is notable then it is published in reliable sources. If it is not then you should not introduce it because Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. It is not our job to synthesize published material to advance a position. -- Vision Thing -- 21:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree. If you are citing the material to criticise the Austrian school, yes. But if you have a section noting a point in the ABCT and what follows it is a point in research that counters that statement, it isn't synthesis to include it. Let's not get crazy here. If I have a person who thinks AIDS is caused by magic and in the next sentence in the article I cite some mainstream result (like, AIDS is caused by the HIV virus), it isn't synthesis just because the researcher didn't mention the crackpot by name. If, on the other hand, you were using the research about business cycles to claim that "researcher A criticized the Austrian School", that would be synthesis. To insist that synthesis somewhow excludes a comparison of claims between fringe (but notable) theories and mainstream theories is untenable. Most scholarship isn't polemical, so you are not likely to find a peer review paper that says "Researcher X doesn't know what he is talking about." You are much more likely to find a paper that says "I can find no support for theory Y" without the comment that theory Y was introduced by researcher X. Protonk (talk) 21:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Do we have consensus here that if Scientist A does research that shows a result contradictory to Claim B of Group C. It is not WP:SYN to include it and state that Scientist A has found evidence against Claim B. However, it is WP:SYN to claim that Scientist A believes that Group C is wrong. lk (talk) 06:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is not per se WP:SYN to include it. You note one way in which including it could become part of a WP:SYN case, though. Another way would be if Claim B is only peripheral to Group C; in that case, Scientist A's results are not "directly related" to Group C (please look for "directly related" in WP:OR). Clearly there are some judgment calls here. Eubulides (talk) 07:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

So, to clarify, it is not WP:SYN to include research that contradicts a claim made by a group. However, it could be WP:SYN if the research is used in inappropriate ways. e.g. a) to claim that Scientist A criticizes Group C, or believes Group C is wrong, or b) to refute Group B over a minor trivial claim, or c) to claim that many scientists believe this refutation without a direct quote as such, etc.... lk (talk) 07:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is WP:SYN to do so. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

i'm not sure you're ever going to find a nice, simple, boilerplate answer to this question. Since this is an article about the theory itself (rather than about the economy in a broader sense) then you can surely add in cites that speak to refute or contradict this particular theory, and you should certainly have references to competing theories, but you have to be careful not to construct or impute disputes that don't occur in the field itself. if you're going to include contrasting theories, I'd set up a separate section specifically for 'other views' so that readers can see that the theories co-exist in the discipline without specifying a particular relationship. --Ludwigs2 21:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course it's a violation of WP:NOR and WP:SYN. We don't give editors a pass on WP:SYN simply because they want to debunk some fringe theory or another. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Which makes Wikipedia prime venue for groups of fringe theorists. They cite their own work from obscure publications, and good luck finding anyone directly refuting their claims; people have other things to do than refuting every fringe theory. Try to argue for changing WP:SYN and check the contributions of those opposing any changes or exceptions to the rule. 'Nuff said. VG ☎ 19:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

An article's topic is not the same thing as the broader topic to which it may belong. Wikipedia is not the place for a pet debunking project. Stick to sources that discuss the article topic, which is not broader economics. Additionally, the argument that there's some pressing need to cite such sources because of a lack of rebutting sources doesn't even apply in this case. There are clearly easily available reliable sources that rebut the theory and they're even included in the article.[2][3] Vassyana (talk) 06:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that it should be Wikipedia policy to exclude from articles all references to research unless the source specifically refers to the particular claim by that particular group? So a page about a group that claims that "AIDS is caused by cat allergies" must not include any information about AIDS except that provided by people directly refuting that particular claim? IMO, this is not current policy. Statements are usually considered properly cited if the source directly supports the statement made.

As far as I can tell, our standard appears to be that its not OR to include research that is directly related to a topic being addressed in the article, and a statement is properly sourced if the source directly supports the statement made. In my opinion, what you are suggesting is self-censorship that goes beyond what we currently do. lk (talk) 08:56, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with lk here: if a direct claim is made, reliable sources refuting the evidence that claim relies upon cannot be considered OR or SYN.--Gregalton (talk) 09:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Not only is it original research to debunk claims in a fashion not done by reliable sources, it is a violation of the neutral point of view to do so. NPOV says that we must present a topic as it is presented in the body of reliable sources. Constructing our own rebuttals based on the premises of a topic is most certainly not in accord with that. It is also contrary to what Wikipedia is not. Three policies, not just one, are contrary to the approach that you are both putting forward here. Vassyana (talk) 11:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe that what I propose merely acknowledges the current practice of including sources that are directly related to an issue that appears in an article, even if the source does not directly refer to the particular person(s) or group(s) that the article is about. I think we all know this, but here are some examples to back up my statement:

In the page about Margaret Thatcher, the observation that during the early Thatcher years "(VAT) was raised sharply to 15%, with a resultant actual short-term rise in inflation", is sourced to a report about VAT that doesn't specifically make the connection between Margaret Thatcher and inflation. Or, in the article about the 9/11 attacks, reference is made to "bin Laden's declaration of a holy war against the United States", sourced to reports before the 9/11 attacks. Obviously this statement is relevant, even though the reports were not directly referring to the 9/11 attacks. Or, in the article about Global warming denialists, note is made of Kivalina v. ExxonMobil as the first climate-change lawsuit with a discretely identifiable victim, sourced to an article about the lawsuit that does not directly address the topic of Global warming denial. lk (talk) 10:20, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The Thatcher example is blatantly original research, as the source not only fails to mention Thatcher but also fails to mention the 15% figure or the United Kingdom. The 9/11 article uses a source that specifically makes reference to 9/11 investigations, which is obviously fine. The global warming denial article speaks about a lawsuit (and uses sources that) explicitly refer to the denial of man-made global warming. As a clear example, the New York Times (an obviously reliable source) relates that the filed lawsuit says that the corporate campaign "to mislead the public about the science of global warming" contributed "to the public nuisance of global warming by convincing the public at large and the victims of global warming that the process is not man-made when in fact it is."

Your first example was a clear case of original research and the other two use sources that explicitly refer to the article subject. Vassyana (talk) 11:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion that the Thatcher reference is OR is inline with your beliefs. It does not however disprove my contention that this type of citation is currently common throughout wikipedia. Obviously the 9/11 article reference doesn't fit. However, it should be easy to come up with more examples. lk (talk) 11:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The Thatcher reference did not support any of the statement being made. It did not support the claim that Thatcher preferred indirect over direct taxes. It did not support the statement that the VAT was raised sharply to 15%. It did not support the statement that there was an accompanying short-term spike in inflation. That's all of the claims made in the statement and the source did not support a single one. That's clearly original research, if not a blatantly false reference. Regardless, I'm sure better examples exist, but that just means there are articles that need to brought in-line with the principles and policies of Wikipedia, not that the fundamental principles of Wikipedia need to be changed. The position you are putting forward contradicts three of our policies, as I note above, and would require drastic sweeping changes to multiple policies and guidelines. Vassyana (talk) 12:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• Looking at the sources quoted at the end of the lede of Austrian Business Cycle Theory, it appears there are reliable sources that criticise the theory and state that it is not widely supported. Criticisms or rebuttals of the theory should be based on such sources, rather than on editors' OR.
• Basically, any significant-minority theory will have attracted comment and criticism from the majority that should be reflected in our article. If it has not, it is a fringe theory that may be without encyclopedic relevance whatsoever, unless it is notable enough to have attracted published attention from scientists working in other fields, e.g. sociologists, psychologists etc.
• None of this requires any change to WP:SYN, which should be scrupulously adhered to. Jayen466 14:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I would think the soulution to this would be something along the lines of: "The Austrian Theory claims that business cycles are caused by central banks' manipulation of the money supply. This is the opposite of mainstream economic theory, which states that manipulation of the money supply by central banks reduces business cycles." (with proper citations for both statements of course). Don't attempt to "disprove" or "debunk" one theory or the other... simply state what each side of the debate says. Blueboar (talk) 14:22, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly my position. However, unless I misunderstand them, Vassyana and Jayen seem to be arguing that it is WP:SYN to include any source that does not directly refer to the narrowly defined topic (ie. defined by the title) of the article. So, an article about the Wild cats of Asia should reject as sources articles about wild cats that don't refer specifically to Asian wild cats. lk (talk) 14:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

That's essentially correct. To use your hypothetical example, it's fine to cite those portions of such an article that expressly address wild cats native to Asia in the article on "Asian wild cats", but not those that discuss "Wild cats" in general. Such portions can be used as sources in the article on "Wild cats". Jayen466 15:05, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe you understand my position correctly. There is absolutely no need to circumvent Wikipedia principles or create a loophole to fully address the topic, including the kinds of facts you would like to include. All it takes is a minimal effort to find plentiful sources. I will provide a couple of examples:

The Routledge Encyclopedia of International Political Economy (ISBN 9780415243506), on page 53 under "Austrian School", relates the the principal distinctions between mainstream economics and Austrian economics can be boiled down to the Austrian school of thought rejecting the applicability of the scientific method, statistics and group models to economics.

Business Cycles and Depressions (ISBN 9780824009441, published by Taylor & Francis), on page 26 under "Austrian Theory of Business Cycles", tells us that the differences between Austrian and mainstream economists is because of differences in focus. According to this source, the Austrians focus on intertemporal distortions of capital structure, while mainstream economists concern themselves with downward spirals in general economic activity. It further clarifies that mainstream macroeconomists consider structural problems to be a separate concern from the problems of demand deficiency and general economic contraction. It also clearly states that Austrian economists consider the mainstream policies of economic stimulation to be the root cause of the distortions that are the focus of their theory.

Both sources were found with a "lazy" search in a short period of time. To be sure that further sources are available, I checked a few archival and library resources finding numerous other reliable sources that contrast Austrian and mainstream economics are easily available. Someone more familiar with the topic with access to textbooks and further literature should have no problem at all finding a plethora of high quality references. No original research is necessary. All that's needed is a minuscule amount of effort to find a few reliable sources. Vassyana (talk) 16:38, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

In practice, Wikipedia does not exclude sources that do not directly refer to the topic of the article narrowly defined. I know from personal experience that in Tulip Mania, the statement, "vivid colors, lines, and flames on the petals as a result of being infected with a tulip-specific virus known as the 'Tulip Breaking potyvirus', a type of mosaic virus." is referenced with a scientific paper on Tulip Breaking mosaic viruses, not an article about Tulip mania. Additionally, a quick look through Featured Articles, brought up these examples:

• In the page about the game 1080° Snowboarding, the statement "Kenta Nagata, who also composed soundtracks for Mario Kart 64 and other Nintendo games." is sourced with a webpage about Mario Kart 64, which does not mention 1080° Snowboarding.

• In 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens the statement "over a billion U.S. dollars in damage had occurred ($2.74 billion in 2007 dollars)" is referenced with a paper called "What is a dollar worth?" from the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis.

• In 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident the statement "These incidents include the killing of four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan by USAF F-16s in the Tarnak Farm incident in 2002 and the killing of a British soldier by USAF A-10s in the 190th Fighter Squadron, Blues and Royals friendly fire incident in 2003." is sourced with an article that does not mention the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown.

• In the article on Bhumibol Adulyadej, the King of Thailand, the statement "The Senate declined to vote to override his veto." is sourced to an article that does not mention the King by name or otherwise.

• In the article about Aikido, the explanation of the Chinese character used to write the word 'ki', "The original kanji for ki was 氣 (shown right), and is a symbolic representation of a lid covering a pot full of rice; the "nourishing vapors" contained within are ki." is sourced to an article about the Chinese philosophical concept of 'qi', the article does not mention Aikido.

• In Ann Arbor, Michigan, the statement "Snowfall, which normally occurs from November to April, ranges from 1 to 10 inches (3 to 25 cm) per month." is sourced with the article Season Weather Averages for Willow Run (KYIP). Willow run is near Detroit Air port, Ann Arbor is not mentioned.

• In Apollo 8, the statement "Jim Lovell's spacesuit can be found at NASA's Glenn Research Center." is sourced with an article that does not mention the Apollo 8 mission.

• In Article 153 of the Constitution of Malaysia the statement "in the 2004 general election, the DAP ran on a platform of defending the social contract in the context of an Islamic theocracy, which they alleged was forbidden by the Constitution, but was endorsed by Mahathir, Lim Keng Yaik and by PAS, the second-largest Malay-based political party in the country." is sourced with an article that does not mention Article 153 of the Constitution.

Since they have gone through extensive review, these articles are prima facie free of synthesis. I believe that what we as editors do is ask, 'Is that statement directly related to the topic of the article?' And then, 'Does the source directly support the statement made?' If the answer is yes to both questions, then in general editors will hold that the statement and source are valid, and that no WP:SYN has occurred.

So, to sum up, I propose that the stricture directly related should apply strongly to statements sourced, but apply only weakly to the sources themselves. Similar to the policy on WP:NPV. Statements in an article must be made in an WP:NPV manner, but sources themselves do not have to be WP:NPV, as long as they are not so biased that they become unreliable. lk (talk) 16:25, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is a small but very active group on WP:NOR who keeps pushing the idea that any source used in the article must literally contain the string "Asian Wild Cats", and there are many FA-status articles that don't strictly abide by this. While I feel that it is a useful heurustic to weed out things that are off-topic, the rule if taken without allowances for synonyms, merged articles, background information, etc would (and does) lead to endless WP:LAME arguments. I feel that this literal interpretation doesn't have anything to do with "original research" per se, because citing a source doesn't generate any novel facts found only on the Wikipedia. Instead, the requirement for sources referring directly to the subject should be moved to the WP:RELEVANCE guideline, so it will only have guideline status, not policy status. NOR should be limited to original facts, opinions, and deductions, and not be the judge for if a source is on topic or not. Squidfryerchef (talk) 17:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

No one to my knowledge is pushing the "literal string" formulation. Synonyms and other obvious references to the core topic of the article seem perfectly appropriate. Broader overview articles are also generally given an "allowance" in that they may have sections addressing subtopics in some detail that are clearly and explicitly treated as part of the broader topic in reliable sources. However, even with that "exception" we are still treating the topic as it is treated in reliable sources. Presenting rebuttals, claiming information is salient and important to the topic, stating that certain topics are related and so on when reliable sources do not make those claims seem like good examples of original research. Vassyana (talk) 18:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

lk, I would take issue with numerous entries on that list. For the Tulip Mania article, the scientific reference appears to be supplementary to a reference that actually supports the statement. The eruption article makes a simple numerical conversion with a reference to support the conversion, which is a rare occurance and uncontroversial. Supplemental sources and simple calculations are fairly uncontroversial in most circumstances and not really relevant to the kind of exception that you are endorsing. Many of the remainder reveal flaws in our review processes, more than being indicative of good practice. (It's well-known that even the best sources have some flaws, so it's not surprising.)

As examples: The Blackhawk incident reference only supports claims British soldiers that aren't even made in the article and none of the claims for which it is cited. The Bhumibol Adulyadej reference is deeply flawed. It not only fails to mention the king, it completely fails to mention any veto and instead casts it in light of a court ruling stating that the original confirmation was unconstitutional. While it is part of Detroit Metro, Ann Arbor should instead cite statistics for Ann Arbor, such as those available here. The Article 153 paragraph is not only off-topic, but is also sourced to an opposition party press release. Vassyana (talk) 18:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Most of these examples are examples where citations should be replaced with improved ones, rather than examples of reasonable use of material that doesn't directly refer to the topic. The FA process is good, and fairly rigorous, but the people involved are just volunteers, who have lots of things to do. I've seen FAs pass with simple spelling errors in them. This isn't a condemnation of the process, merely pointing out that the reviewers are self-selected volunteers. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

... and given that Lovell took part in two Apollo missions (8 and 13), that spacesuit might well have been the one he wore on Apollo 13, making this a bad cite and an instance of going beyond the source (as it happens, it is the Apollo 8 spacesuit that is exhibited, and I've added a reference in Apollo 8 that makes that clear). Likewise, in the Aikido example, there are plenty of better sources like this one or this one that discuss ki as a central element of Aikido and explain the origin of the ideogram. Re Squidfryerchef, of course synonyms are fine. A source that refers to "wild cats native to Asia" or "Asiatic wild cats", or indeed the "Indian desert cat", may be perfectly appropriate. But a generic source on felids that, say, looks at the evolutionary relationship between the Felidae and Canidae, or the dentition patterns found in Felidae, without mentioning a single Asiatic species, really has no business being cited in an article on "Asian wild cats". Jayen466 00:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Prontok mentioned that most scholarship isn't polemical. If most scholarship really isn't polemical why would we need to create polemic artificially here on Wikipedia? In the case of ATBC, arguments of several economists who are not talking about ATBC are placed in the "Criticisms" section. But why? Those economists are not criticizing ATBC, it is opinion of some Wikipedians that they do and that opinion is not supported by reliable sources.

I see that argument "we must draw our own conclusions or fringe theories would go uncontested" is used a lot by some here. In my view that is a wrong kind of argument to make. Wikipedia has a notability threshold – claims, especially controversial ones, need to be supported by reliable sources. There are good odds that reliable sources will mention controversy if it exists. If they don't that still doesn't pose a problem. In the case of ATBC we have general articles on business cycles, money supply and central banks where giving proper place to the views of mainstream economists is not OR. Placing views of those economists in topics to which they are not directly referring to is not only breach of WP:OR but also of WP:NOTSOAPBOX. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, not even for a mainstream views. -- Vision Thing -- 20:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me try to clarify the opposition argument: 'Sources must be excluded if they do not directly refer to the topic of an article, narrowly defined according to the title of the article. Your examples of Featured articles not following this policy is irrelevant because Featured Articles are written by amateurs and contain sources that they shouldn't. Therefore, we are right.' lk (talk) 03:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

We have at least 4 mainstream critiques of the theory. Currently I'm browsing through a book by David Laidler which discusses the theory,[4] having skimmed a Bank of International Settlements discussion paper by him which briefly discusses it. The criticism you are synthesizing is not apparent in any of these sources. That raises the question of whether it is really a valid criticism, as you believe. This is a textbook case of synthesis. It's not really a gray area. II | (t - c) 04:22, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that someone, somewhere, has made this argument about Austrian theory. We'll get the cite eventually. I just object to the principle 'all references that don't refer to the name of the article must be excluded'. lk (talk) 08:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I also object to the principle that the source must refer to the name of the article. At Chiropractic, for example, some editors object to citing sources about the effectiveness of spinal manipulation, using the WP:FRINGE argument that "chiropractic spinal manipulation" is distinct from "spinal manipulation" and that, therefore, spinal manipulation is not directly relevant to chiropractic. Obviously the sources in question could be removed from Chiropractic, but they tend to be the most-reliable sources cited (Cochrane Collaboration reviews, etc.), as neither mainstream medicine nor mainstream chiropractic buys the fringe argument in question. Removing these high-quality sources will cause Chiropractic to rely on weaker sources and inevitably will make Chiropractic less reliable and more POV-ish. For more on this topic, please see Talk:Chiropractic#Request for Comment: Excluding treatment reviews. Eubulides (talk) 20:45, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. (BTW, Wikipedia's article on "ditto" is wrong, this isn't a slang phrase!) VG ☎ 20:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

If you want to change the policy, let's be open about that. But what you're saying is clearly WP:SYNTH by the policy as it is stated on WP:NOR. The example of Smith and Jones on that page is quite analagous -- you can find some fact which directly contradicts the statement of someone makes, but if you cite that fact as if it does contradict the statement, you're synthesizing to create original research. Eubulides, if the researchers in the field believe that general SM is appropriate for discussing chiropractic SM, then they will use it. If they don't, they won't, and if you're using it and they don't, clearly you're injecting your own opinion that it is appropriate. And in fact they do use it, with some mainstream researchers objecting that its not applicable, so it seems like you're way exaggerating an issue. II | (t - c) 21:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Eubulides has already agreed that the argument that "chiropractic spinal manipulation" is distinct from "spinal manipulation" is NOT a fringe argument. Edzard Ernst has commented that not all spinal manipulation research is related to chiropractic spinal manipulation. Given that, the inclusion of non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research at Chiropractic would violate WP:OR if this non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research makes no conclusions specifically about chiropractic spinal manipulation. Because how are we - as editors - supposed to know which non-chiropractic spinal manipulation research can be related to chiropractic spinal manipulation and which ones cannot be related? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not proposing any change in policy, no WP:SYNTH is involved, and the Smith-and-Jones example doesn't apply to the dispute at Chiropractic. At the risk of repeating that other discussion, no mainstream researchers of chiropractic have objected that spinal manipulation is not directly relevant to chiropractic. The objection by mainstream researchers was about not clearly identifying research sources, which is quite a different issue. Eubulides (talk) 22:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. Ernst states: The authors also claim that 43 randomized, controlled trials of spinal manipulation for back pain have been published, but they fail to mention that most of them do not relate to chiropractic spinal manipulation. So yes, Ernst objects that the authors failed to clearly identify research sources. But no, that is not a different issue. Ernst is stating that not all trials of spinal manipulation relate to chiropractic. In fact, he feels that the majority of the 43 which the authors looked at do not. WP:OR states: ...to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that refer directly to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. So if we have a source which doesn't refer directly to chiropractic, then using it to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic at the article Chiropractic would present an OR violation. Right? And WP:SYN states: If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited do not refer directly to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research. Currently we are using sources at Chiropractic to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic, but many of these sources are not explicitly about chiropractic nor do they explicity reach any conclusions specifically about chiropractic. They are sources which have studied spinal manipulation in general (often times as performed by practitioners other than chiropractors). Given that these sources reach conclusions about spinal manipulation in general, and given that mainstream researchers such as Ernst claim that not all spinal manipulation research is related to chiropractic, wouldn't you agree that the inclusion of non-chirorpactic spinal manipulation research at Chiropractic to discuss the effectiveness of chiropractic violates WP:OR? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:18, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

And to generalize this - and shed some light on the topic of this thread - here, we have a theory (chiropractic is not fringe, but it does straddle both the alternative and mainstream medicine worlds) which some users are trying to debunk or support by citing research which doesn't specifically discuss chiropractic. Applying such research to chiropractic is of course a violation of WP:OR. So yes, citing research which doesn't specifically mention a theory but can be interpretted by a Wikipedian to contradict such a theory is a WP:SYN violation because it is using the research in an original way - a way which wasn't the intent of the authors of the research. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 00:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I think in cases like this we fall into a difficult area. Many sources assert that (by far) most uses of a technique is part of a particular profession. That technique is strongly associated with the specific profession in sources and the public mind. Many references regarding that profession treat studies of the practice as applicable to the study and critique of the profession. On the other hand, there are numerous criticisms of this conflation. Many sources state that using broader studies of the technique are inappropriate because they include data pollution by regarding use of the practice outside of the profession's theories and techniques. A number of reliable authorities further critique the use of such broad studies to focus on the negatives, relating it to focusing on pharmaceutical side effects when discussing doctors of medicine (MDs).

I believe that in such cases extreme care must be exercised and that it is a very difficult balancing act. It cannot be disputed that the practice is widely considered an integral part of the profession, yet it is equally indisputable that the conflation is strongly criticized. Personally, I would lean towards treating the practice as an appropriate subtopic of the broader profession (based on the general treatment of it as such within sources and the public mind), while carefully and clearly noting that a few outside researchers & many within the profession dispute the conflation (and why they dispute it). Strong caution must be exercised to ensure that such a section does not become little more than a debunking platform or promotional soapbox, choosing a very careful and representative selection of sources. Of course, that's much easier said than done!! Vassyana (talk) 05:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I generally agree with Vassyana here. Please see #Alzheimer's article can't cite dementia papers? below for more (this section got too long). Eubulides (talk) 06:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana, where would be the better place to discuss spinal manipulation research which is not directly related to chiropractic? At Chiropractic or Spinal manipulation? Do you think that using non-chiropractic spinal manipulation studies which in themselves make no direct conclusions about chiropractic should be used in the Chiropractic article to make direct conclusions about chiropractic? Or would that be violating WP:OR? Please take into consideration that researchers such as Edzard Ernst have commented that not all spinal manipulation research is related to chiropractic spinal manipulation (much less directly related). -- Levine2112 ^discuss 18:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The studies in question are not "non-chiropractic"; they incorporate data, mostly from chiropractic sources, but sometimes from non-chiropractic, and make conclusions about the main form of treatment used by chiropractors. Obviously some spinal manipulation research is non-chiropractic, but that is not the case for the studies being disputed here. Eubulides (talk) 19:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

They are non-chiropractic in the sense that they say nothing specifically about chiropractic in their conclusions (regardless of whether or not they relied on some chiropractic data). They discuss spinal manipulation in general, a form of treament used by other professions as well and tell us nothing about chiropractic specifically. Using such sources to talk about chiropractic at Wikipedia is in effect using a source for a purpose not intended by its authors. That is an OR violation. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 19:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no requirement in WP:OR that sources for Chiropractic must say something specifically about chiropractic "in their conclusions". Their discussion of chiropractic can occur in any section; it need not be in their conclusions section. Eubulides (talk) 20:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course there is such a requirement: to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that...directly support the information as it is presented and Take care, however, not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source, such as using material out of context and especially Even with well-sourced material, however, if you use it out of context or to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research. You are wanting to use conclusions which say nothing spefically about chiropractic out of context to advance positions such as "chiropractic is effective for treating foo" or "chiropractic is not effective for treating foo". In actuality these sources might say that "spinal manipulation is or isn't effective for treating foo"; however they are not referring to chiropractic specifically. Ernst has told us that not all spinal manipulation research relates to chiropractic. Therefore, we cannot relate all spinal manipulation to chiropractic. We have to find sources which refer to chiropractic specifically in the conclusions from which we are source the text we include in the article. If the don't mention chiropractic specifically, then they are probably more appropriate for the Spinal manipulation article. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Nothing in those quotes requires the source to support the claim in the source's conclusion section. Eubulides (talk) 03:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

What does that mean? Wikipedia needs to require that the sources we use support the conclusions of those sources? That's a very confusing statement. Perhaps you can reword and clarify for me. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 04:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

SYNTH is absurd sometimes, completely absurd, yet if consensus is not available it is something we just have to stick to. I don't know how to get around this necessity. It's one of those situations where there aren't any technical ways to define when it is appropriate and when it is not, and the community has opted to simply ban it. I agree with Doug Weller that a tag might work for such articles, though "no scientific evidence" is itself SYNTH and is also not scientific as it asserts negative evidence. However, some such tag might really help. I agree that yes, it seems directly relevant, yet at the same time, there is no getting away from the argument that it's SYNTH ""A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." Look at Wikipedia:Fringe#Parity_of_sources. You can have less RS sources in a criticism, as long as you use good ATT. But no, the problem is that allowing any SYNTH at all leads to abuses or arguments which would destroy WP. I have to agree with Vassayana, that no matter how illogical it may be in a particular case, unless there is complete and total and enduring consensus we have to stick to sources that discuss the article topic. Please also note that people are sometimes forgetting about WP:NOTABILITY. If a thing is included at all, it will have criticism if it is controversial. SYNTH is very old and basic policy, and it doesn't make sense except when you start to understand that anyone can do it. Now, there is an example about Margaret Thatcher above. I think that comes under my exception for complete consensus. If it is not controversial at all, we IAR with SYNTH. That as Ik says, is common practice. In the current situation, however, it is controversial, and therefore SYNTH must be strictly adhered to. Let me formulate it again: WP embraces OR, SYNTH and whatever, but only when it isn't controversial. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's return to that initial example, but make it more analogous to the passage in question.

1. Group A says that eating fat reduces heart attacks.
2. Group B notes that various people have eaten less fat in the hope of reducing heart attacks, and have indeed had less severe heart attacks than other people.

Now,

1. How much fat, by what measure, did group A mean?
2. How much fat, by what measure, did group B eat?
3. How much fat, by what measure, did those ”other people” eat?

The passage in question, as it is written, doesn't stand as respectable science, “original” or otherwise. —SlamDiego_←T 17:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Alzheimer's article can't cite dementia papers?

I agree with Vassyana that it's a tricky area. However, I wanted to clarify the particular case of Chiropractic. There is no dispute among reliable sources that the profession (chiropractic) and the treatment (spinal manipulation) are distinct topics. The dispute here is not whether the two topics should be distinguished (we all agree that they should be, and Chiropractic #Evidence basis carefully distinguishes them); the dispute is whether spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic, or (to use the current formulation in WP:NOR, which is mutating as we speak—talk about a confusing situation!) whether it's OK to cite a source on spinal manipulation that "refers directly" to chiropractic, and which "directly supports the information as it is presented", even if the source's reference to chiropractic is not in the source's title or abstract or conclusion.

To take a different example, Alzheimer's disease, a featured article, cites multiple sources that are not primarily about Alzheimer's, which hardly mention Alzheimer's, or which don't mention Alzheimer's at all. For example, it cites Thompson et al. 2007 (PMID 17662119), which is about dementia in general, not about Alzheimer's in particular; that article barely mentions Alzheimer's in passing. I would be quite skeptical of any claim that it's WP:OR for Alzheimer's disease to cite Thompson et al.; but if it is, there are lots more citations like that in Alzheimer's disease, and lots more like that in many featured articles. It's hard for me to believe that WP:OR is really intended to ban citations like these. Eubulides (talk) 06:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

So basically we have an article about pies. In that article, in a section about the tastiness of pies, you want to include information about the tastiness of tacos. The taco information comes from a source which does not mention pies in its conclusions about the tastiness of tacos. Are you asking if it is okay to include the taco information in the pie article if you promise to clearly distinguish the taco information from the pie information? I think it becomes a question of relevance and confusion - which in turn can create an OR/SYN issue. By merely presenting the taco i