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Contents 1 Question: Referencing something v. promoting it 2 Archive moves and indexing, okay to set up? 3 STYLE1.0 4 Question on how to deal with citation issues 5 Non-print references 6 Over-referencing 7 yes Blogs Again 8 How to cite quotes of quotes? 9 {{Citation}} and other citation templates 10 references vs. footnotes 10.1 Wiki development? 11 Wikipedia editions 12 Bug with the reference tags? 13 Clarification re WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT 14 Citing museums 15 Any WebCite alternatives? Need to maintain verifiability. 16 Discursive notes 16.1 Request for nb tags 17 When is it okay to remove a "citation needed" tag? 18 Wtmitchell 19 Non-English Sources 20 Easier way to make refs using Javascript or whatever 21 Is there a rule for citing one source that will constitute paragraphs of text? 22 Image source 23 New examples 24 Reference/source format/style 25 Citing conflicting sources 26 BLP? 27 Difficulty finding a full citation 28 What to cite if I translate them from Thai Wikipedia? 29 Wiktionary 30 Date format in footnotes 31 Citing DVD's 32 Footnotes and punctuation 32.1 Where to place ref tags 32.2 What do other style guides say? 32.3 Citations at the end of a paragraph 33 References 34 Adding a "How to write them" section for Harvard or author-date referencing 34.1 Citation templates: How to use them 35 Non-in-line citing 36 Proposed citation style guideline 37 punctuation and cites. 38 Question posed 39 Proposed rewrite of 'What to do when a reference link "goes dead"' 40 Referencing 41 Flash Websites 42 citation patent 43 Legal citations for modern English law 44 Citation of subscription-only content 45 We shouldn't abbreviate journal names 46 Harvnb 47 What to do with named references that have never existed in an article. 48 Footnote Fonts? Current footnotes destroy layout, presentation and readability 49 Changing Author-date referencing to Parenthetical referencing 50 Linking to full-text articles copied by non-mainstream sources 51 Blogs as a source 52 alphabetizing authors with different naming traditions 53 Best reliable sources 54 Citation templates considered harmful 54.1 Clearer editing with shortened notes 54.1.1 A method that doesn't require big changes 54.1.2 Return to the "shortened notes" topic 54.2 Please cosider voting for Bugzilla:12796

Question: Referencing something v. promoting it

This edit has been reverted twice now under an accusation that it is a promotional link. But it is serving a purpose of referencing the claim that goes before it. Is it possible that the removing user is being a bit over zealous in their enforcement of the rules, or is it that the including user (i.e. me) should find a different way to reference that statement? -- Roleplayer (talk) 11:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

To the extent that there is no other source for the claim, it may not be worth including. The company's own site is obviously not a great source for referencing the quality of its product. Christopher Parham (talk) 11:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Archive moves and indexing, okay to set up?

Would it be agreeable to everyone to:

1. Move the archive pages to a standardized Talk:Citing sources/Archive <#> name;
2. set up indexing of this page using User:HBC Archive Indexerbot;
3. change the auto-archiving config to the more standard format by capitalizing the word Archive, and adding a space between the archive and the digits;
4. changing the archive box to auto(Requires the page moves), and adding an auto archiving notice.

Not to sound lazy but 21 archives is a lot to sift through. I would think the previous suggestion of splitting discussion into sub-pages would get unwieldy to maintain. -Optigan13 (talk) 07:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Why not just switch to yearly archives and combine the old ones as needed? Vegaswikian (talk) 07:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The page is already archived by Miszabot. It doesn't matter to me, but why change? Gimmetrow 07:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The indexing is the main thing I'm looking for, changing the archives to some consistent naming just makes it easier for setting up the mask. The same is true for not archiving based on year. Also looking at comments above where the same topic seems to come up repeatedly it helps to see the previous discussions on the index without having to load them all up on the latest discussion[1], or to simply title the conversation Topic Name(Part II), and the previous ones would be found based on naming. I find auto-indexing to be helpful and complementary to auto-archiving. -Optigan13 (talk) 08:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea to me. Although Google searches can provide some of this information, I'd much rather have indexed keywords from the archives available here. I regularly comb the archives and find out that the few words that made it onto the project page can't be understood properly without the context. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 19:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

STYLE1.0

Version 0.7 decisions are being made now, and the printed and DVD Wikipedia Version 1.0 is not that far off. Wikipedians don't have absolute discretion in formatting decisions (where the periods should go, where the lines should break, end section format, etc) in the printed version; there's also the publisher to deal with. Why formatting decisions in the printed version might affect Wikipedia style guidelines is a bit complicated (short answer: "Jimbo said so"), so anyone interested in either is encouraged to join the discussion at WT:STYLE1.0. Some of the discussions above do seem to involve these kinds of issues. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 18:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Question on how to deal with citation issues

Please note the following discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Divine_Science#References_were_deleted

Wouldn't the correct procedure be to leave the citations in place, flag the article for cleanup (not sure what tag) and then wait a reasonable amount of time for the editor to correct his/her own error? Low Sea (talk) 20:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Non-print references

Can it be appropriate to cite a documentary? If so, can someone point me to a good example that I can emulate? Mingusboodle (talk) 16:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course you can cite a documentary, if the publisher is reliable. The format of the citation should be in the same family as the citations already in the article; which article are you thinking of adding the citation to? --Gerry Ashton (talk) 17:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It's important to distinguish between factual material present in the documentary and the editorial material that accompanies it. Both may be of value to articles but they need to be presented differently in articles. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Over-referencing

Is there such a thing as over-referencing? The article which inclines me to ask is smokeasy, which currently has more than seventy references for a ~1-page article. Any advice on how to approach this, or is it OK as is? — Epastore (talk) 02:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is such a thing as over-referencing. See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Horace François Bastien Sébastiani de La Porta/archive1. It would help to collect all the notes to the same text into one long note, by taking out the </ref><ref> tags between them; at that point you can see where the documentation is repetitive. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

For reference here is Horace François Bastien Sébastiani de La Porta at the time of the FAC nomination. -Optigan13 (talk) 04:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The references haven't changed much: chiefly by consolidating references to the same page in consecutive sentences, which is also a good thing; but that's not smokeasy's problem. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

My gut reaction on seeing a long list of references isn't "They must go" but "What is really going on here?" Clearly, the idea in smokeasy, from the word itself and from the number of references, is to draw a parallel to Prohibition (both inside and outside the U.S.). In a sense, the number of references itself, if taken to an extreme, could be considered a kind of POV-pushing. I don't have an argument with the article; I'm just saying that it's an interesting take on the signficance of the number of references. Another interesting situation is the 84 references at Robot, where the number of references and size of the article reflects the fact that the article itself has become kind of a "hangout" for a certain group, and a prime target of people who want to add wikilinks to their favorite article. For those and other reasons, people were not willing to break up the article when I suggested it a couple of months ago, and given the size and scope of the article, the references are well-chosen. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 18:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

First to recite the credo: The authority of Wikipedia comes from the authority of its sources. I'd like to see two reliable sources for every sentence in Wikipedia, but that's just me. There are literally millions of sentences in wikipedia that should be sourced but aren't. Who cares if there are a couple of sentences that have six or ten sources? I think we should give the article a medal of some kind.

Having said that, I would consolidate the big sets of footnotes (you know, ^[1][2][3] etc.) into a single footnote. It's prettier and easier to read. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 07:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

yes Blogs Again

As Blogs become more ubiquitous perhaps wikipedia could consider other exceptions than just the "under the direct supervision of a newspaper".

There is a situation going on right now where we have an AfD on a holiday. One of the many claims made by the nominator is that "I don't know if this is a 'holiday' that's just celebrated by three guys in a room."

A check of Google show 3,550 entries for the days' name, easily refuting that statement. However given that it is an annual holiday celebration, many of the entries are now being placed in Blogs -- either listings local events or of individuals commenting on their plans for the day. Without violating wikipedia policy that Blogs are not to be used as a reference is there some way to dig our way out of this quandary?

Especially given that the nominator explicitly did not assert that there were no references that might easily be found, just that they had not been used as references. BiAndBi (talk) 23:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Well I think the idea is, if all the mentions are in blogs that don't have some special claim to credibility, then this doesn't really meet a solid level of reliability. Looking at the article, however, it seems that some non-blog sources have been discovered, so I don't quite understand the "quandry" -- if anything this is an AFD where the system worked and the article will, correctly, be kept. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

While I of course Assume good faith on the part of the nominator, I am guessing that should the article survive the AfD process soon Citation needed tags will be blossoming across the articles text. Especially where there is a statement that the holiday is widely celebrated and lists several countries/continents. Just trying to get ahead of that eventuality. BiAndBi (talk) 00:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, it would make more sense to raise this issue at Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh sorry, Should I just re-enter the question verbatim over there? Should this one be left and just a pointer be put in? How should I move it over there correctly? BiAndBi (talk) 00:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You could just raise the same question there, and indicate here that the discussion is taking place elsewhere. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

As suggested have reintroduced the topic over at Reliable sources - yes Blogs Again BiAndBi (talk) 00:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

How to cite quotes of quotes?

I am the primary contributor to Michael Sinclair (British Army officer). I haven't worked on the article for quite a while but am trying to get back into it, and I have a question.

I have been going to great length to cite everything I write in the article, using the two books I have available about the subject. In order to make it easier for people to verify the information, I have included short snippets of the sections being quoted. This is particularly important since one of the books (Colditz / The Latter Days) has been published in numerous editions, originally as two books but later as one combined volume. The page numbers that I cite will not be valid for most editions.

I have indicated quotes from the books in italics and, in the cases where I am quoting a quotation in the book, I also enclose it in quotation marks. Someone mentioned that I should enclose all the quotes in quotation marks to indicate that they are quotes from the book, but then how would I indicate a quote of a quote? Two sets of quotations marks just doesn't look right to me.

Sorry about the excessive use of the word "quote" in this post, but there was no other way of putting it ;). Any ideas or comments?

Qarnos (talk) 11:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Try WP:PUNC, top of that section, and also WP:MOSQUOTE, and see if that covers it. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 12:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

{{Citation}} and other citation templates

I have a problem with the following guideline:

There are (at least) two families of citation templates. The {{Citation}} template is intended to provide citations for many types of references. The other family has names of the form {{Cite xxx}} (for example, {{Cite book}} and {{Cite web}}). These two families produce different citation styles. For example, the "Cite xxx" family separates elements with a full stop, and gives page ranges as plain numbers, while the "Citation" template separates elements with a comma, and precedes page ranges with "pp." Thus, these two families should not be mixed in the same article.

Unfortunately, there are no instructions in the documentation of {{Citation}} on how it should be used for web pages. Should some be added? Also, what about simply making the two types of citation templates consistent with each other? — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 23:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

references vs. footnotes

I'm bringing rongorongo up for GA or FA, and have a question about notes.

The article has a large amount of supporting material in footnotes, things which are excessive for the body of the article, but which would be important for someone who really wants to delve into the subject. Since there are a lot of amateur epigraphers out there, and decipherment is a popular hobby, this is particularly important for articles such as this one.

The problem I have is with mixing these footnotes with the references, which is the style I've seen on Wikipedia and which is assumed by this page here. If they're mixed together, then the reader won't know until following it whether a note is simply a page number reference, or supporting material which may be important for fully understanding the text. This results in readers who are interested in the footnotes being distracted by each little reference as well.

My solution is a hybrid system, with inline Harvard refs for page numbers and separate footnotes. Is this justifiable, or is it something I'll eventually be forced to change?

Thanks, — kwami (talk) 19:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I think this is fine. Many articles use different systems for explanatory footnotes and citation. Often, the cite.php system is used for citation and the ref/note template system for explanatory footnotes. For instance, see the FA Pericles. Your system is somewhat different, but serves a similar purpose of differentiating content footnotes from citations alone. This isn't to say that someone won't complain at FAC, but I think your method is well within accepted practice. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Parenthesised in-text citations in combination with numbered content footnotes would be consistent with (for example) APA style, so I don't think there should be any problems. [2][3] --SallyScot (talk) 13:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Wiki development?

It'd be good if we had an easy to use 'notes' equivalent to go with <ref>. So, in addition to <ref>'s numbered references for citations, we could have something distinctive and separate for discursive notes. I'd suggest that these could have automatic assignment of roman numerals to coexist with and compliment <ref>'s Arabic numerals, for example <nb> and <notes /> tags (or <nbi> and <notesi /> tags) which automatically generated separate numbered notes.

At the moment this can be achieved as in the following...

Example text,^[i] more example text.^[ii] A second appearance of a note.^[ii]

Notes

1. ^ This is an example discursive note.
2. ^ ^{a b} Discursive notes can be shown separately from references or citations - giving a neater appearing alternative compared to having mixed "Notes and references" or "Notes and citations" sections. This is an example of such a note. It is not generated via the Footnotes method (i.e. via use of <ref> and <references/> tags). Instead it uses hard-coded wikilink values to link forward and back to and from the notes and their reference points.

However, if you look at the editing behind the example above you'll see it involves a degree of html coding that would make it something of a chore to maintain.

I'm not a wiki developer. Does anyone have any suggestions how this idea for automatically generated distinctive roman numeral identified notes might be further progressed?

--SallyScot (talk) 20:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This has been brought up in WT:FOOT. I don't know if it can be implemented without future improvements such as mentioned near bottom of WP:FOOT. -- SEWilco (talk) 20:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

SallyScot, the coding behind your example can be simplified a bit by using currently-existing templates something like the following:

Example text,^[i] more example text.^[ii] A second appearance of a note.^[ii]

Notes

• ^a This is an example discursive note.
• ^a b This is an example discursive note.Discursive notes can be shown separately from references or citations - giving a neater appearing alternative compared to having mixed "Notes and references" or "Notes and citations" sections. This is an example of such a note. It is not generated via the Footnotes method (i.e. via use of <ref> and <references/> tags). Instead it uses the {{ref label}} and {{note label}} templates.

This example is missing the css class="references" hilite styling. Perhaps the Ref and Notes family templates could be modified to do that, but I've looked briefly at that and there seems to be some sort of a hitch in MediaWiki:Common.css with {{Ref}} and the plainlinksneverexpand css class. I'm not css-literate enough to see what the problem there is off the top of my head. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

---

Thanks Bill. The difficulty with the way either you or I coded it would be of course with the renumbering which would need to be done to all the subsequent notes when adding a preceding new one.

There are also some other slight differences via {{ref label}} and {{note label}} templates I think. For example, it's difficult to get the emphasis and italics exactly the same as generated by <ref> for the back-links. Perhaps more importantly, the alignment of the notes isn't as clear (as I substitute your bullets for actual roman numeral below). The closest I've got so far this way is...

Example text,^[i] more example text.^[ii] A second appearance of a note.^[ii]

Notes

i. ^{^}  This is an example discursive note.

ii. ^ ^a b  Discursive notes can be shown separately from references or citations - giving a neater appearing alternative compared to having mixed "Notes and references" or "Notes and citations" sections. This is an example of such a note. It is not generated via the Footnotes method (i.e. via use of <ref> and <references/> tags). Instead it uses the {{ref label}} and {{note label}} templates.

And yes, its a shame about the hilite not being there too. I don't think that's easily fixable either. What's in {{note label}} is actually highlighted, but that is in effect just the back-link not the note content which has to be outside the template of course.

--SallyScot (talk) 00:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia editions

Just wondering, is citing sources from another Wikipedia language edition allowed? Say, I would like to cite my sources from the French Wikipedia. I think it's not, is it? -- Felipe Aira 13:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

For some languages, there is a tag, like {{de}}; you should note indebtedness in this style. But this is a GFDL notice that you have begun with a translation, not a citation. Wikipedia is not a reliable source, in any language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

You can use sources that are not English (if there are no alternatives), you can use foreign language Wikipedia versions to find these sources. But you cannot use the foreign aticle itself as a reference (just like you cannot use another English article as reference). Arnoutf (talk) 16:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

We had a long relevant discussion at WT:V#Radical change... recently. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 22:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Bug with the reference tags?

Hi has anyone come across a possible bug in the reference tags where the tag hides the sentence it is supposed to provide the reference for? In the Traffic signals section of the utility cycling article I have tried to insert a reference for a sentence on UTC systems and induced traffic. But what happens is that the sentence disappears. I am using Firefox if that's relevant.

See here click edit to see the hidden sentence and ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_cycling#Traffic_signals.2FTraffic_control_systems

--Sf (talk) 21:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Presumably [4] was the problem? Gimmetrow 22:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Doh! Thanks for that! --Sf (talk) 23:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Clarification re WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT

Seeking clarification: It seems to me that if a citation is a printed work as found on a site like JSTOR or Google Books, where the actual work, as published and paginated, is presented, then the printed work really is the source, and the web site was just a medium through which it was read, like reading a newspaper article on microfilm in lieu of having a copy of the printed newspaper in hand. Sound reasonable? —Largo Plazo (talk) 15:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I would list both the printed version and the electronic site I used to read it; there could be a deliberate or accidental difference between the printed version and the electronic version. In the case of microfilm, the chance of a difference is less. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 15:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

In case of things you get from Jstor, I don't see any reason not to cite them directly - what's there is a scanned copy of the original. It's nice to include the JStor links so other people can look up the articles quickly if they also have JStor access. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Likewise, Google Book Search contents are scanned. They aren't a transcription of the print document's text, they are an image of it. I agree that it doesn't hurt to provide the link in addition to the citation of the printed document, but I see that as a convenience, not as part of the citation. —Largo Plazo (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

That's how I feel as well. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Citing museums

I have photos of a museum artifact that I would like to upload and use in the Kamapua'a article. The information about the artifact, for example where it was found, the identification of the artifact, etc., is contained in the informational plaque alongside exhibit (of which I also have a photo). How should I cite the informational plaque? Regards, Oscar (talk) 09:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Any WebCite alternatives? Need to maintain verifiability.

WebCite is not working : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=YouPorn&diff=203585025&oldid=203567497. Anyone know of (free) WebCite alternatives that work? Need to maintain verifiability when using a source that has a robots.txt (I think that's why WebCite is not working here.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by IReceivedDeathThreats (talk • contribs) 22:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Discursive notes

...earlier part archived...

'My' version looks and behaves more like <ref> tags. Bill's is probably easier to code. But the main point I think we'd both agree is that both (both 'my' HTML and Bill's {{ref label}}+{{note label}} solution referred to in archived part) require the numbering to be manually kept in sync. All I was really trying to suggest is that the ordered list part should be fairly easy for a wiki-developer to do as it would just require style="list-style-type: lower-roman" instead of the default.

To be clear, the request would be for code so that something like the following...

Example text,<nb>This is an example discursive note</nb> more example text.<nb name=Discursive>Discursive notes can be shown separately from references or citations - giving a neater appearing alternative compared to having mixed "Notes and references" or "Notes and citations" sections. This is an example of such a note. It is wishfully generated via a companion to the ref footnotes method (i.e. via use of nb and notes/ tags).</nb> A point made with a supporting reference.<ref>Author, A. (2007). "How to cite references", New York: McGraw-Hill.</ref> A second appearance of a note.<nb name=Discursive /> 

== Notes ==

<ol class="references" style="list-style-type: lower-roman"><!-- ol tag gives following list elements roman numerals -->  
<li id="note01"
><b>[[#nb01|^]]</b> This is an example discursive note.</li>
<li id="note02"
>^ <sup><i>[[#nb02a|a]] [[#nb02b|b]]</i></sup> Discursive notes can be shown separately from references or citations - giving a neater appearing alternative compared to having mixed "Notes and references" or "Notes and citations" sections. This is an example of such a note. It is not generated via the [[Footnotes]] method (i.e. via use of ref and references/ tags). Instead it uses hard-coded wikilink values to link forward and back to and from the notes and their reference points.</li> 
</ol>

Generates:

A point I'd emphasise about 'my' html code code above is that it is in many respects essentially similar to html generated by <ref> tags. I copied and tailored it via viewing the page generated source html of a Wikipedia article; the main difference as far as the generated list of notes is concerned being my setting style="list-style-type: lower-roman". I figure it would be fairly easy for a wiki developer to give us automatic assignment of roman numerals to coexist with and compliment <ref>'s Arabic numerals, for example <nb> and <notes /> tags (or <nbi> and <notesi /> tags) which automatically generated separate numbered notes. You'd need to clone the existing code behind <ref> tags, only setting the output list-style-type to lower-roman. My assumption is that doing a similar thing (i.e producing lower-roman case) for the numbered reference tags themselves (the numbers that appear in the body text) would not be overly problematical.

--SallyScot (talk) 20:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Am I missing something? It seems simpler to do:

Example text,{{ref label|note1|i|a}} more example text.{{ref label|note2|ii|a}} A second appearance of a note.{{ref label|note2|ii|b}}

== Notes ==

i. {{note label|note1|i|a}} This is an example discursive note.
ii. {{note label|note2|ii|a}}{{note label|note2|ii|b}} Discursive notes can be shown separately from references or citations - giving a neater appearing alternative compared to having mixed "Notes and references" or "Notes and citations" sections. This is an example of such a note. It is not generated via the [[Footnotes]] method (i.e. via use of ref and references/ tags). Instead it uses hard-coded wikilink values to link forward and back to and from the notes and their reference points.

Which produces output similar to:

Example text,^[i] more example text.^[ii] A second appearance of a note.^[ii]

Notes

i. ^a  This is an example discursive note.

ii. ^a b  Discursive notes can be shown separately from references or citations - giving a neater appearing alternative compared to having mixed "Notes and references" or "Notes and citations" sections. This is an example of such a note. It is not generated via the Footnotes method (i.e. via use of ref and references/ tags). Instead it uses hard-coded wikilink values to link forward and back to and from the notes and their reference points.

This, of course, requires that the {{ref label}} parameters be manually kept in sync with the matching {{note label}} parameters. Having that done automatically is not a big issue technically but, if my experience with bugzilla:12796 is anything to go by, getting anything to happen on putting a change in place after the coding is done is a big hurdle. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 02:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Request for nb tags

'My' version looks and behaves more like <ref> tags. Bill's is probably easier to code. But the main point I think we'd both agree is that both require the numbering to be manually kept in sync. All I was really trying to suggest is that the ordered list part should be fairly easy for a wiki-developer to do as it would just require style="list-style-type: lower-roman" instead of the default.

To be clear, the request would be for code so that something like the following...

Example text,<nb>This is an example discursive note</nb> more example text.<nb name=Discursive>Discursive notes can be shown separately from references or citations - giving a neater appearing alternative compared to having mixed "Notes and references" or "Notes and citations" sections. This is an example of such a note. It is wishfully generated via a companion to the ref footnotes method (i.e. via use of nb and notes/ tags).</nb> A point made with a supporting reference.<ref>Author, A. (2007). "How to cite references", New York: McGraw-Hill.</ref> A second appearance of a note.<nb name=Discursive /> 

== Notes ==

<notes />

== References ==

<references />

And maybe we could have curve brackets instead of square for some further distinction, producing...

--SallyScot (talk) 18:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the point with Bill's is not that it's easier to code, but that it already exists. 86.44.30.169 (talk) 02:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be asking for <nb> tags that handled auto numbering if they already existed. --SallyScot (talk) 13:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

When is it okay to remove a "citation needed" tag?

Sometimes I see "citation needed" tags for things that would be common knowledge to anyone with a moderate level of experience in the topic. In these cases, I have usually done a quick Google search to find a paper mentioning the fact, and then I cite that totally random paper. I think this kind of citation is really useless and clutters the reference list with things nobody actually wants to read. However, the alternative is just removing the tag, and that seems like a slippery slope as well.

I propose this compromise: If you think that a "citation needed" tag is on something which is common knowledge, just make sure by doing a Google search. If you get several hits that would have been adequate sources, just delete the tag, but don't actually add a citation. This compromise prevents the buildup of superfluous citations, but it also ensures that the user deleting the tag was not mistaken in their belief that the fact was common knowledge.

I see this example all the time: "X can be used for Y. ^{citation needed}" Okay, everybody I know who does Y uses X to do Y, so I believe this to be true. However, that is original research. Google turns up 10 websites about using X for Y, but it is just mentioned in passing. If the article read "X is often used for Y," or "X is very good for doing Y," then that statement might require some research. But "X can be used for Y" is essentially proven by the fact that I use X for Y.Fluoborate (talk) 11:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the "random citation" method has problems. There is some advice on uncontroversial knowledge at Wikipedia:Scientific citation guidelines, which explains the best practices for that sort of thing in science articles. For a fact that is particularly obvious, I sometimes leave the reference on the article's talk page, pointing out how standard the fact is.

There are some issues with "X can be used for Y" claims, involving due weight for uncommon uses. So those have to be handled on a case by case basis. — Carl (CBM · talk) 11:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Several guidelines for writing scientific papers give examples when something is obvious. For example Newton's F=MxA does not require reference. But there is a large grey area; forv example where something maybe common to a very small expert group, but uncommon to almost everyone else. Arnoutf (talk) 12:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This is an area of active discussion, in several different places, including a current thread on WT:V#Detailed analysis of this page, which started out argumentatively but has a lot of intelligent discussion from regular contributors to WT:V. There is wide agreement that we prefer articles written by people who are experienced in a subject; however, these people may be writing more to impress their peers than to impress us. I might say, "You need a cite here, because it's not obvious to me", and they might reply, "It's common knowledge among everyone who can and will read this article." If I then start inserting {{citation needed}} tags everywhere, and if the people who hang out on that page really don't feel the citations are needed, they could invoke the "impose one's own view of 'standards to apply' rather than those of the community" clause from WP:POINT. There's no requirement that articles have to be written so that everyone can understand them; how would everyone understand, say, a mathematical proof? There's only a requirement that difficult material should be written so as to be as accessible as possible. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 13:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC) P.S. The page Carl pointed out is great, and WP:WHEN and its talk page are useful. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 14:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The method you suggest is sort of dangerous unless you feel you are qualified enough on the topic to be aware of any pitfalls. The disputed statement may, for instance, be supported by some sources but rejected by more modern or more mainstream sources. Generally I would check the talk page for any clarification of the citation request; if it's not there, post a new section asking someone to explain why the statement is disputed; and if nobody responds, remove the tag. Christopher Parham (talk) 15:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Christopher's answer seems like the best one (the most direct answer to the question) in a pile of good answers, to me. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 16:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I want to make several points.

1. I thiink it is always better to simply do a little research and a find a source for an "obvious" fact. These kind of obvious facts should appear in an introduction to the topic for undergraduates, or high school students, or "dummies", or "idiots". Just pick up one of these books and add the source. It's not hard, and it's the responsible thing to do. Research is an editor's main job.
2. A {{citation needed}} tag is not an insult or a criticism. It's a kind of "todo" list—one editor asking everyone else to help with some research. It also lets readers know that Wikipedia is a work in progress; that we're constantly trying to improve the accuracy of Wikipedia.
3. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of nonsense in Wikipedia. Some editors add paragraphs and entire articles that sound intelligent but are actually nonsense. Wikipedia attracts exactly this kind of armchair intellectual. (It was this kind of thing that got me started as an editor—I discovered an entire family of articles on a major academic subject (artificial intelligence) that were filled with misunderstandings, nonsense, and self-promotion. In a word, they were bull----.) This kind of nonsense hurts Wikipedia's reputation, and readers who have read nonsense are unwilling to believe anything else they read in Wikipedia, unless there is a citation to reliable source. The point of this story is that, for many subjects, you can't trust the authority of a Wikipedia editor—the authority of Wikipedia comes from the authority of its sources. I would like to see a reliable source for every word in Wikipedia, but that's just me. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 17:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Good analysis of CharlesGillingham (although I would not stretch it to referencing all of ^{citation needed} wiki's ^{citation needed} words ;-)

In general I think the caption "When adding material that is challenged or likely to be challenged" captures it all. In my opinion the addition of the {citation needed} tag means that the statement is either challenged, or according to someone is likely to be challenged. Therefore I would argue that the simple addition of a fact tag alone places the tagged line into the need of a reference. Circular, perhaps, but IMHO a nice method of bootstrapping in Wikipedia improvement. Arnoutf (talk) 17:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "you can't trust the the authority of a Wikipedia editor": if they have a history of reliability, they're no more and no less likely to be reliable in the future based on that history than anyone else. I certainly do not think that, just because someone is an academic or journalist or professional, they have some kind of inherent trustworthiness not available to Wikipedians. Btw, there has been a dramatic change in consensus on this point in the last two years; see WT:Verifiability/Archive 26#Academics and journalists. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 19:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems that although we use different arguments and style of reasoning, most of us basically say that:

• If something is such an obvious fact to people in the expert community providing the reference should be easy. So why not do it
• The aim of Wikipedia is to address topic to people outside the expert community, so facts obvious to experts may not be to everyone
• There is no way to check the expertise of an editor, in another way than by the sources provided by that editor (by the way, in scientific publishing academics are required to provide references as well, even if they are experts).

In summary it seems most of us think we should not remove the "citation needed" tags except for some very rare situatioons. Or have I misinterpreted now? Arnoutf (talk) 20:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, no. Citation needed tags should be removed if, in fact, no direct citation is needed for that claim. Perhaps the is covered by a more general reference already cited, for example. Excessive citation hides the interdependence of statements, and makes uncontroversial statements appear as if they "need" a citation — as if they are surprising or controversial. So judgment is needed to decide the right way to respond to each "citation needed" tag. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Carl, couldn't we just use a ref tag to say, in effect, "This doesn't need a citation"? There are lots of ways of saying that, depending on the situation. If the article has a math proof, say in abstract algebra, and someone wants a cite to prove that something is a "group", perhaps we could put a ref tag at the very start to one of the general references, and a description after the general reference that says "For people unfamiliar with abstract algebra, this is a good general reference to the terms in this article." - Dan Dank55 (talk) 23:23, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Arnoutf, you seem to think that more references are always preferable to fewer. I disagree. Excessive referencing disrupts the flow and is ugly; the text starts to look like something from some pomo Master's thesis rather than an encyclopedia article. References that have some serious utility for non-experts, great; references for references' sake, please no. There has to be a balance, and therefore in some cases it has to be acceptable to remove the tag. This will always, of course, be subjective, and people will have to argue about it case-by-case. --Trovatore (talk) 20:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I think you misunderstand me. No I am not in favour of more references perse; I have experience with at least one "verify or I'll delete everything" fundamentalist, who I think does more damage to Wikipedia as a project than leaving some semi-disputable claim up. I also agree that once something is referenced by a general source that should cover the broader section.

However, if new facts, not covered by a reference in the same section, are presented these should in principle always be referenced, and many Wikipedians do not have the discipline, or mindset to do so, and this is causing opinion to kreep into debates as if facts. One of the problems it that not all editors know which facts maybe disputed. I have stumbled upon many articles (within my personal expertise) that seem to be written by undergraduate students reflecting the opinions and positions of what I guess are their university professors as facts; even if their theory is not mainstream in the scientific community. Unsourced introduction of such "facts", by people who identify themselves as experts is another serious problem.

Of course we all know this, and the fact tag was designed to flag this up. So, if some editor in good faith has added the {fact} tag, (and it is indeed a new fact which is not covered by a running reference) then in princile the reference should be provided.

If you can manage consensus on the talk page I would agree that sometimes even in such situations the tag may be removed. However, personally I would argue that this must be a major consensus in which non-experts are involved (otherwise experts may manage to create reservations for unsourced TRUTHS (e.g. in rewriting articles like Hollow Earth) which IMHO goes against the core spirit of Wikipedia). So while in theory I support talk page discussion to resolve fact tags, I would be extremely careful, to an extent that it would be practically impossible. Perhaps the best practical solution would be to convince the person originally tagging the sentence that it really does not require such a tag. But habing some experience with some editors that may not be practically feasible. [That was Arnoutf ... where's Sinebot when you need him?] (Sorry for not signing) Arnoutf (talk) 18:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

That sounds pretty resonable -- sorry I misread your point. --Trovatore (talk) 00:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem, if my statements were misunderstood, I should have expressed more clearly ;-) Arnoutf (talk) 18:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, my question sparked quite a lot of discussion, but I learned a lot from it. Many good points were made. At the end of the day, I stand by my original method and will apply it under the same circumstances: First I will do a Google search of the fact in question to make sure I was not mistaken, and there is no debate that I am not aware of, and then I will remove the tag IF AND ONLY IF I feel that a citation would be detrimental to the article. A needless citation can be detrimental - it makes something look less-than-common-knowledge, and it draws attention away from the article's other sources which should be more interesting and harder to find. If there are lots of citation needed tags in the article that I feel meet these criteria, I will not simply delete all of them, I will bring it up on the discussion page. But one tag could obviously be the work of one surprised reader thinking "What? Whales are actually mammals? No way, they don't have hair, or four legs, or anything."Fluoborate (talk) 08:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, and remember that if you're doing that much work, doing a search and following up on sources, you can always use a footnote (using the same ref markup) to say why you're not giving an inline citation, for instance, "Basic information on whales can be found in any college zoology textbook", or even better, mention a textbook. That reduces the chance that the article will go through the same cycle later on. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 12:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Wtmitchell

Sorry about labeling Wtmitchell as a vandal for blanking most of the page in the edit summary, my fingers were faster than my eyes. I'm sure it was an accident. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 02:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the misedit, and thanks for fixing it. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Non-English Sources

What about sources that aren't in English? There doesn't seem to be a policy against it, so is it okay to use a non-English reference in the English Wikipedia? -- Qaddosh|^talk|contribs 21:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. See WP:RSUE for the nitty gritty. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The most recent discussion, pretty much covering the bases, is at WT:Verifiability/Archive 26#Radical change of impostation to Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources. It points to and supports the section Christopher mentioned. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 13:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Easier way to make refs using Javascript or whatever

I'm an experienced editor who can now make nicely formatted refs without too much difficulty. When I started I found the ref process difficult. I imagine this has been discussed a bunch somewhere and would like to know where to talk about our options with javascript of whatever for making adding refs transparent to the average user. Anyone know where we discuss this? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 08:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Scattershot answer: see the Tools section on this page (not the talk page, I mean), Template:Cite, and the links at the bottom of that page. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 12:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Also see Gadgets/RefTools in your "my preferences" link, and Diberri's tool. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 03:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC) (Tweaked my answer - Dan (talk) 13:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC))

Is there a rule for citing one source that will constitute paragraphs of text?

In my sandbox, I'm working on Western Washington Vikings, the first of hopefully a lot of DII sports articles. There are histories on the university's official athletic site for all fourteen current (and one former) varsity sport. Together, they comprise well over one hundred pages of information, which surely is enough to write at least a serviceable draft.

Anyway, can I put a cite in the end of each section (I think I'm probably going to do one for each sport), or do I need to throw in a million <ref name=samesource/> tags? Or do I need to find other sources simply for the sake of having them? I have a few others; not many. Tromboneguy0186 (talk) 06:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

There are several interesting issues here, and I'm not the expert. Could you run it by the noticeboard? Those guys are incredibly good at answering questions like these. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 11:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, posted. I never know where to ask questions like this anyway 8-} Tromboneguy0186 (talk) 13:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Image source

I find this absurdly restrictive, especially for historical images that have been widely reproduced. The original author might be relevant, but the ephemeral website that the original uploader gets it from is completely unencyclopaedic. I will reword this section in due course, unless someone more experienced in copyrights on WP has something to say. --Relata refero (disp.) 07:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

What section? the phrase "Image source" does not appear anywhere in the guideline. Also, this guideline is about citing sources, not uploading images. It is not a copyright violation to cite a source, except that if the source we cite is obviously violiating copyright, we might be considered to be contributing to the violation. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 14:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Naturally. I refer to the text in WP:CITE#IMAGE. Is there some reason I should not rewrite it in light of the concerns I raise above about widely available/PD images? --Relata refero (disp.) 18:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

It is a courtesy to those wanting to verify that the source is genuine, to provide a link to a reliable webpage (not a link to the file itself) that includes the image information so that information can be verified. If this can't be done, fair enough, but it will reinforce the image against future people questioning it. For example, we link to the Library of Congress image information pages using {{LOC-image}}. You might also want to talk to User:MECU about this, as he has strong views on this. Carcharoth (talk) 12:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

We met on his talkpage after he templated me, remember? :)

If it is merely a courtesy, I don't think it should be in this guideline at all, nor should it be part of the deletion criteria. That is unacceptable. Let me explain: if I were to come across, for example, a fair-use criterion written for a fairly well-known set of photographs of historical importance, but which do not specify a URL from which they came, I do not think we have the right to assume that criterion is incomplete and delete the files. For one thing, websites are ephemeral. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I vaguely remember MECU making a change with little discussion. If that is what you are referring to, I agree, change it back and start a discussion. If it is a case of making different pages consistent, could you point out which ones they are? Carcharoth (talk) 18:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

New examples

I have just created an essay Wikipedia:Verification methods and I wonder if any of the regular posters here would like to take a look at it and comment. It is basically intended to provide some clear examples of the most common methods of verification (i.e. citation styles) that are in use. It has both schematic examples and lists of articles that use the various styles.

I hope to merge Wikipedia:Verification methods into this article, but I thought I would save my work as an essay for now, until I have a feel for what the community thinks of this approach. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 10:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks like uncontroversial examples, thanks for working on that. Just a reminder (not directed at you in particular): the first infobox says: "When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus." Also, style guidelines pages in general tend to link to pages that give extended examples rather than covering the examples themselves, so someone might object on those grounds (not me...I'm neutral on the general principle, I'd have to see the proposed changes), although obviously there's already a lot of detail on this guidelines page. - Dan (talk) 13:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Reference/source format/style

I read the article about how there are several styles and none should be encouraged nor discouraged. I wonder though, how many other things are prescribed here on Wiki, and why references, etal should not be done the same on every article. When someone reads an article on Wiki they then know what to expect because the format of each article is common. That doesn't mean every article has all the same parts, but if an article contains a certain type of content/part (body, intro, refs, external links, etc...) then all articles look the same.--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 17:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad everyone agrees with me.  ;) --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 11:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Citing conflicting sources

Something struck me last night, growing out of recent discussions I've seen at WT:RS and/or WT:V (this one and others}. I'm in a bit of a rush, and so cannot take time to agonize over the wording here. Hopefully, I can make my thoughts understandable. What struck me is that an unsupported assertion is weak, and open to challenge. A cite-supported assertion is stronger, but is still open to challenge. Sometimes cite-supported assertions are contrasted against conflicting cite-supported assertions. It seems to me that this guideline project page should provide some guidance covering this situation. It seems to me that the guidance provided should be essentially that in cases where cite-supported assertions in an article conflict with one another, the conflicting assertions should be attributed inline to their supporters in the article prose.

e.g, not

"Assertion 1.<ref>{{Harvnb|Jones|1989|p=123}}</ref> Conflicting assertion 2.<ref>{{Harvnb|Smith|1943|p=45}}</ref>"

but instead something like

"John Jones asserts that assertion 1.<ref>{{Harvnb|Jones|1989|p=123}}</ref> Contrarily, Stanley Smith asserts conflicting assertion 2.<ref>{{Harvnb|Smith|1943|p=45}}</ref>"

(Smith and Jones either being well-known authorities or having had their credentials established earlier in the article, and their referenced works being listed with full citations in the article's References or Bibliography section). The point here being that WP article prose should strive to present verifiable facts. As long as Smith's assertion 1 is unchallenged, that can be presented as a verifiable fact; once someone brings up Jones' conflicting assertion 2, neither assertion is a verifiable fact, but it is verifiable fact that Smith and Jones made the conflicting assertions. Am I onto something here, or do I have too many angels dancing on the head of this pin? -- Boracay Bill (talk) 06:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I get your good point, and it seems particularly true where there are limited people stating views on a topic. However where one viewpoint has overwhelming support in the literature, we only need a limited number of citations to act in support (we can't go listing hundreds of papers). In such a situation an opposing source, whilst needing mention under NPOV if it is credible (ie reliable source and not a frivilous trivial claim), does not warrent giving equal space under WP:Undue. Hence mentioning the details of the opposing author in any length to give the view authority, may give undue credence to their position if we do not give balancing authority to the initial opinion and this can look ungainly . So whilst I like your examples, more generally I think it depends on the situation and the phrasing chosen, eg look at:

1. Current understanding is that X,<ref>"1997 Consensus of Amercian Cardiology Society</ref> but recently this has been questioned,<ref>2008 Time to re-evaluate ? Amercian Cardiology Society</ref> following the results of a couple large studies.<ref>2006 X sometimes associated with Y - Bloggs UK Cardology</ref><ref>2007 X may occasionally be caused by Z - Fred, Cardiology Today</ref>.
   Current understanding is that X,^[4] but recently this has been questioned,^[5] following the results of a couple large studies.^[6][7]
2. Amercian Cardiology Society's previous agreed position was stated in 1997 as X,<ref>"1997 Consensus of Amercian Cardiology Society</ref> but recently some in the society have questioned whether this needs to be reassessed,<ref>2008 Time to re-evaluate ? Amercian Cardiology Society</ref> following the results of the large studies of Bloggs 2006<ref>2006 X sometimes associated with Y - Bloggs UK Cardology</ref> and Fred 2007.<ref>2007 X may occasionally be caused by Z - Fred, Cardiology Today</ref>
   Amercian Cardiology Society's previous agreed position was stated in 1997 as X,^[4] but recently some in the society have questioned whether this needs to be reassessed,^[5] following the results the large studies of Bloggs 2006^[6] and Fred 2007.^[7]

I prefer the former as the second is far less succinct.David Ruben ^Talk 00:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the former is better although it will sometimes bring out accusations of weasel word usage. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

BLP?

What is BLP? I can't find an article about it. Renduy (talk) 00:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP Wikipredia policy on Biographies of living persons. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Difficulty finding a full citation

I'm hoping someone can help me out here. Or tell me I can stop looking.

I added the majority of information to the article for Mulholland Dr., and I would like to put it up for FAC, which means my citations have to be perfection. I added a quote from an article I found here, which looks like a David Lynch fansite. So I am suspect in using fansite citations. I contacted the New York Times Syndicate who confirmed they sold the story to LesbiaNation. I called LesbiaNation's parent company gaywired.com, who no longer has the story - or can't find it. They suggested I contact the author of the article. I am willing to do that, but before I bust more nuts trying to find the original citation for this story, is this all necessary? Is anyone here experienced in FA review and can say you would forbid this article based on that citation? I apprecaite your reponse. Thank you. --Moni3 (talk) 19:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Since the website specifically gives all the source information, as an FA reviewer I would let this pass. Karanacs (talk) 21:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't, per WP:SELFPUB, but I'm not voting :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You may be voting, at some future date. I need to know if I need to take this quote out (I really don't want to do that at all - seriously - it's a significant quote). Or continue to pester the hell out of the author. Or, since there's a procedure to follow in the case of dead links, surely there must be a procedure to follow for lost archived articles? --Moni3 (talk) 22:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Did you check archive.org? Do you have a hard copy or have you checked a library? If so, you can verify the text and it can be found in a library, and you don't need the link. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I called the New York Times Syndicate who gave me the fansite. When I said the fansite was unacceptable, they told me to contact LesbiaNation. I called and emailed them, and they said they don't have it in their archives due to a server crash several years ago. I searched LexisNexis and ProQuest for the author, subject, actress' name, title of the film, but nothing comes up. I did check archive.org, but was unsuccessful (was my first search with them, so I may not know what I'm doing). I am now attempting to contact who I think is the author... --Moni3 (talk) 22:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The fansite is fine, Moni, because the article has been published elsewhere by a reliable source, so the link to the fansite is only a courtesy link. It's the article that is your source. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 08:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Will you come to my rescue, o brave SlimVirgin, when I'm drowning amid multiple opposes based on that one source during FAC? White steed and everything? --Moni3 (talk) 12:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I will indeed come to your aid, not only with a white steed, but with knowledge of the policies, links to previous discussions about this if I can find them, and other people who will support what I'm saying if needed. It wouldn't make sense to refuse a citation because of a website that it happens to be hosted on, because an online link is never required for a citation, so you can just leave it off if someone objects. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 00:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The writer of the story responded:

"Hi:

Don't think I can help you much. The article is copyright 2001, New York Times Syndicate. It ran the week of September 24, 2001 and I distinctly remember the day I talked with her (September 11, 2001) because she was stuck in Toronto due to the attacks that day (and was driven home because all fights were canceled)

What you saw on that site is the full story, but I don't think the Syndicate has it on file anymore and there's no URL to send. Stories for the Syndicate go over the wire like a Reuters or AP story, so the only URLs would be those of the outlets that ran the story. Any page or volume info would, again, be outlet-specific. I don't even have my finished copy of the story anymore, since that was two or three computers ago. So, all I can tell you is it'd be accurate to flag the piece as: Sept. 24, 2001, New York Times Syndication Sales Corp.

Hope that helps,

Ian"

Any tips or suggestions on how to cite this? --Moni3 (talk) 14:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The citation would be:

<ref>Spelling, Ian. [http://www.davidlynch.de/harringnyle.html "Laura Elena Harring Explores The World of David Lynch"], ''LesbiaNation'', November 2001.</ref>

If you like, you can add at the end of the citation: "first distributed by the New York Times syndicate, September 24, 2001." SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 00:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There's an e-mail address on the Web for what looks like the author. It's ianspelling at filmstew dot com. He'll know the exact date of publication in LesbiaNation and elsewhere, and whether it's hosted anywhere else. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 01:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I got hold of Ian Spelling through scifi.com. That's his reply up there to my inquiry. He doesn't have the story, but he verified that what is on the fansite is the full article. I'll amend the citation, and I appreciate your support. I've been able to track down almost every other fansite citation I used. --Moni3 (talk) 02:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Glad to help, Moni, though it was stupid of me not to notice that the thing you posted above was from the author — I just glanced at it and missed "Ian." Anyway, feel free to give me a shout if you need further help. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 03:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The logic I think you are using is absurd. the article has been published elsewhere by a reliable source, so the link to the fansite is only a courtesy link That would be true only if one had access to the reliable source. We can't, as general practice, pretend we have seen articles that may not exist, and such pretense should not pass our most rigorous review. The idea that one can use a fansite as a reliable source for a reliable source is surprising. Is that what you were saying above, or are you factoring in the other attempts at verification? 86.44.30.169 (talk) 23:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

This is moot, but what would you suggest if, hypothetically, The New York Times archives burned down and all past copies of the newspaper were destroyed forever? --Moni3 (talk) 23:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's a helpful thought experiment, but I wouldn't suggest using purported mirrors on unreliable websites to imply one had the article to hand. That's unacceptable ethically and in terms of best practice. And "courtesy linking" to the mirror would be in breach of our policy about linking to copyright violations. 86.44.30.169 (talk) 08:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, regardless of how neat or not my thought experiment is, this should probably be addressed at some point. A story was written, and the distributor and original publisher no longer have a copy of it. The author verifies the mirror site story is correct. If there's no procedure in place for a case similar to this, there should be. --Moni3 (talk) 12:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

—You're talking about a case such as yours here. I was addressing Slim's view, which did not seem to factor in any attempt at verification, and which said that it was fine to give the impression you had seen the source, and not a mirror of it (which remains bad advice in my view even in your case, I think you need to add something like "Reprinted on davidlynch.de, verified as correct by original author.") 86.44.30.169 (talk) 01:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

What to cite if I translate them from Thai Wikipedia?

I would like to translate some articles from Thai Wikipedia into English Wikipedia. I'm not the person(s) who wrote those in Thai Wikipedia. I feel a little awkward to copy those references without knowing what are those. So now my question is that

• (1) Should I copy all the sources and paste into English Wikipedia although I never read those sources before?
• (2) If the original article has no reference, what should I cite? Thai Wikipedia itself with the revision number?
• (3) What should I do if someone else found out those the references and the articles themselves are irrelevant? or no one really care to read the references part?

I realize that some of those sources must be in Thai language, but poor sources are better than no sources. Thanks. --Manop - TH (talk) 11:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

See WP:V#Non-English sources -- Boracay Bill (talk) 11:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

You didn't read what I wrote, did you? --Manop - TH (talk) 11:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I did. You said:

“

I would like to translate some articles from Thai Wikipedia into English Wikipedia.

”

and asked:

“

I realize that some of those sources must be in Thai language, but poor sources are better than no sources.

”

I replied with a pointer to a policy page which says, in part:

“

Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others might challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors.

”

I realize that this is not a complete answer to your question, but I thought that it might give you some useful info.

Pardon me for trying to help. It has been said that no good deed goes unpunished.

Cheers. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 11:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for my words. I would like to help Wikipedia. I didn't mean to be mean. If you feel sad, I really sorry about that. According to the (strict) policy, it seems to me that if I cannot find any reference, I should not write any single thing and turn back. --Manop - TH (talk) 21:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Wiktionary

I've just seen wiktionary cited as a source in the Till Disambiguation page. Is it possible that I can propose that this be discouraged by wikipedia policy? I say this because of the possibility of feedback loops.

For example, a vandal makes a change to a wiktionary page which is then copied into wikipedia by a legitimate user, who assumes it to be true. He then cites Wiktionary as the source. Meanwhile, at Wiktionary, the vandal's edit is checked by looking at the relevant wikipedia article. The wiktionary "checker" then cites wikipedia as a source - Wikipedia cites Wiktionary, and Wiktionary cites Wikipedia. May I suggest users cite the source which wiktionary cites, or not at all.--82.152.177.245 (talk) 20:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Citations to wikis are strongly discouraged per the reliable sources guideline because of just the scenario you mention. Karanacs (talk) 20:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Date format in footnotes

The format listed in the example footnotes here is, I believe, Month Day, Year (with the month written out and the day/year as numerals). Should this not be the same as the guideline date format in the Manual of Style, ie without a comma separating the Month/Day and Year and perhaps with a choice between Month Day and Day Month based on article consistency? Or should the Month Day, Year format be used universally for references per Harvard style? I've just been reformatting the dates on a couple of articles, and while the article itself is straightforward there seems to be some confusion as to the exact format of the footnote dates. Adacore (talk) 09:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you are getting your information; Month Day, Year is the standard American style and is one of the formats found in the manual of style. Day Month Year is the standard Commonwealth style. Both styles are options found in the date autoformatting menu. Citations in articles generally wikify these dates so that they conform to reader preferences. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The dates section of the manual of style specifically states "Wikipedia does not use ordinal suffixes or articles, or put a comma between month and year." It's this use of the comma I'm querying, mostly, along with whether the choice between commonwealth/american date formatting is available. Adacore (talk) 08:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Your quote from the MOS refers to the case with only month and year without day. If the date to cite were "January 2001", there would be no comma. "Full date