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Contents 1 Wikipedia itself as source 1.1 Wikipedia as a source for Wiktionary 2 Use of subpage for extensive references 3 Examples 4 Harvard references not being accepted at WP:FAC 5 Publishing dates in book citations 6 On requiring a single official source 7 Contradiction? 8 Foreword in Book 9 Style identification 10 Are URL-only links an acceptable citation style? 11 References/external links headers name-change proposal 12 I'm correcting a minor oversight, plus proofreading the article 13 Massive feature creep... again 14 Enormous overkill 15 This needs to be EASIER 16 What to do when a reference link "goes dead" 17 Changes 18 Inline links 19 WP:V citations 20 Let's rename this page 21 Uncited, disputed statements 22 Do we cite sources when we find a fact? 23 Major style change without apparent consensus 24 A strange way to do references 25 Internet Archive source template 26 Quotation marks 27 Naming of the section: "References" or "Sources" 28 cite.php 29 Direct quotes in references 30 Newpaper names 31 Wikipedia:Notability (websites) 32 Template tags 33 Book citations 34 Threshold 35 Standards 36 Citing liner notes 37 Citing television documentaries and news programs 38 Sources in translation 39 Numbered external links - before or after period? 40 Clarification about ease of checking 41 What to call the References section when using footnotes 42 Citation for Oral sources? 43 citing a source twice 44 Maintenance 45 Citing sources not used in writing the article 46 WP:DRV#Template:Google 47 Citing user manuals 48 URL date of access 49 Footnotes better than inline URLs? 50 "References", "External links", and "Further reading" 51 Citing a DVD 52 Five Ws 53 When referencing books: Are page numbers needed? 54 Over-referencing 55 Citing people with no surnames 56 Proposed changes to format for Wikipedia Cite extension 57 Citing a patent? 58 After paragraph 59 Movies, etc. 60 Citations when calling people hookers 61 New proposal WikiProject Reader 62 Link to subscription services? 63 Further reading should not contain books, articles already cited 64 Citing episodes from televison series 65 Other people citing wikipedia 66 Noting reprints in citations? 67 Separating policy from style

Wikipedia itself as source

"…Wikipedia articles may not use other Wikipedia articles as sources…": surely this is much too strong. They are not considered citable sources, but they are perfectly legitimate sources when writing an article. I doubt that there is a single serious contributor to Wikipedia who never looks at one Wikipedia article when writing another, if only to get correct spelling for link, to verify a date, etc. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:23, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi Jmabel, that's what's meant: can't be cited or relied upon as a sole source. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:34, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I totally agree that they should not be relied upon as a sole source. I'd also agree that articles in the English-language Wikipedia should not be cited in the English-language Wikipedia. However, I would argue that when articles in foreign-language Wikipedia's are used as a source—especially when an English-language article is largely or entirely a translation of a foreign-language Wikipedia article—that should be cited. We do this a lot; for example, from Paragraph 175 (a featured article): "Much of the content of this article comes from the equivalent German-language wikipedia article (retrieved September 30, 2004). The following references are cited by that German-language article…". I think this is much more intellectually honest than any other approach, and also tremendously more useful to anyone attempting factual verification, since it helps sort out who was really an author, and who was merely a translator. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I generally agree with what Jmabel writes — yet I still resist calling this "using material from other language wikipedias as a source." These are sister projects and it makes sense that we copy material from one another. I just don't see this copying from sister projects as "research," I see it as a function of a network of wikipedias in different languages. Moreover, we assume that the articles in other languages are themselves based on research that confroms to our policies. In fact, if we encourage borrowing from sister projects (which I think we should do) it is obviously necessary that our policies are coordinated. I know for example that the Spanish wikipedia has an NOR policy [1]. But I do not think they have a "verifiability" or "cite sources" policy. I propose that there be some working group of bi or multi-lingual editors who review policy pages, make sure there are no inappropriate inconsistencies, and promote the exchange of good content from a policy page in one language to another. Do people agree with me? If so, any ideas as to how to proceed? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, without my taking on most of what you just said: I don't care whether we call it "citation" or not, but do you agree that we should make it clear that when you translate large quantities from another Wikipedia, that belongs with a mention in the reference section, along the lines of what I described? Because what the project page says right now seems to me to say that you shouldn't make such a mention. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:19, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, I guess I missunderstood your main concern. I am honestly not sure &mdah; I would like to hear what others think about this. I do think you raise a good point. But the thing is, I still think that Wikipedia should not be a source for itself, even if we are using wikipedia in another language as a source for an article in English. I think your point raises other issues, like, what were the sources for the other-language articel? Do we want a link to the talk page for that original article? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

As you can see, the example I gave above from Paragraph 175 ended with "The following references are cited by that German-language article…" (in the article this is, of course, followed by those sources).

I've been too busy to do much article translation lately, but I believe this continues to be the pattern for how people typically do this. If someone translates an under-cited article, it's still useful to let people trace back a step. Are these under-cited articles ideal? Hell, no. But it beats giving the false appearance that the article appeared at a stroke and there is no use pressing the translator for the sources of the original. Frankly, my experience is that when I pressed authors of Spanish-language articles I've wanted to translate for their sources, often as not they've viewed this as an insult. But on some topics, especially related to the Spanish-speaking world, these articles were definitely worth translating, even if under-sourced. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

With regards to this topic, when an article like Computer summarises the content of a number of other articles, I don't see anything particularly wrong with using other Wikipedia articles as sources, particularly when much of the article is intended as an easy-to-read description of knowledge that is universal to any professional in the field. --Robert Merkel 14:08, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia as a source for Wiktionary

I have on occasion referred to information in a Wikipedia article (typically a permalink reference) as the source of a definition or an etymology in Wiktionary. I've been a bit leary of doing this, but have not done it often and consider it a compromise between retaining Wiktionary-type data in Wikipedia, the gut feeling not to use Wikipedia in this manner, and the "conservation of information" philosophy I try to work under. Should I be confessing my sins at doing this, or just break a sweat and move on? As examples of my actions consider Wiktionary:Abu, Wiktionary:abracadabra, Wiktionary:atom and Wiktionary:Ásgarðr. P.S. I've not brought this up in the Wiktionary community nor have I met with any opposition to date ... but the latter is an especially weak excuse considering the relatively small number of people who contribute to Wiktionary, let alone take it seriously. Courtland 04:40, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Any comments on reference as used in Oleg of Chernihiv article? How would you improve them?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:41, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Conversely, what about Wiktionary as a source for Wikipedia? CJLippert 01:34, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Use of subpage for extensive references

On the Jehovah's Witnesses-related pages, there are regular arguments over exactly what JWs believe. Each party provides long lists of quotes on the talk page, which soon get archived and forgotten.

The Wikipedia:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses is working on redoing the pages to include references for all claims about their beliefs, but there are often claims of out-of-context quoting and contradictory references. (JW publications often do this.) Nearly every statement will need a reference as these are highly disputed pages, and this will lead to a very large references section.

It would save a lot of time and space if a subpage could be used to quote the references and their contexts. I know subpages aren't used for this normally, but I think this would be a useful exception. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 05:08, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

• quotes - consider whether wikiquote might actually be the right place for these JW-related quotes, if extended sections of books are quoted, and if there isn't a copyright problem, maybe even wikisource might serve. Then, its always possible to link to these quotes from the wikipedia article, without repeating all the text.
• About article splits: try to avoid POV splits as explained in Wikipedia:Content forking: using summary style as explained in wikipedia:summary style, is a good technique for splitting long articles, while avoiding POV forking.
• The cite sources guideline used to contain:

  [...] If [a] sub-topic wikipedia article is duly referenced to specific literature, these references need not be repeated in the general article: instead, try to provide general references for the general article.
  The same applies when using the {{main|<subpage>}} template or the {{details|<subpage>}} template (in summary style) under a section header for referring to a related subpage: detailed references applicable to the subpage don't need to be repeated on the main page.

  ...which is maybe what you were looking for. --Francis Schonken 08:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that was something you wrote, Francis, and it wasn't clear what it meant so it was removed. As I recall it was because no one could understand what a "general reference" was in the "general article." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the ideas, Francis, but I don't think it really fits what I'm talking about.

• The project isn't creating POV forks; the current pages are huge and we are simply forking out sections to make article size more reasonable.
• Wikisource isn't any good because most of the publications are still under copyright. I'm not sture that Wikiquote is great either, as the copyright owner zealously sues even those that simply list quotes of their publications (http://quotes.watchtower.ca is currently being sued). I think the safest thing from a legal point of view is quotes for the specific article, as this more clearly comes under fair use than a wikiquote list of quotes.

My point is that even in the specific articles (as opposed to general), if the full reference with context is included, the references section would dwarf the page itself. Because the issues are so contentious, each sentence will require a reference to back it up, which will make for a massive references section. It would streamline the article if we could have a SAMPLE ARTICLE/References subpage. --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 22:20, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Can the articles be broken up into smaller, more specific topics? But perhaps you should just do what needs to be done first. If the references do indeed get huge then you have an example to deal with. Maybe most articles won't get overly large, or Wikipedia not being paper will change the way it appears. The information is the important part and the formatting can be changed later. (SEWilco 22:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC))

Okay, thanks for the advice. We'll see how we go! --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 22:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

One example where this has been done is AIDS/references. Personally I think a subpage is a bad idea in this case. What is really needed is some judicious editing. Most of the references are highly specific and not even cited in the article. Exiling the references to a subpage is the easiest solution, but far from the best one. - SimonP 16:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the example. I was thinking more of using the subpage because the quote and context would be included (say 4-5 paragraphs of text). Thanks! --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 22:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Examples

Hi SE, please leave the citation examples as examples of what we're actually describing. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:52, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I created examples of what we're actually describing. (SEWilco 19:58, 1 November 2005 (UTC))

I don't understand your latest edits. Could you explain here please? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Using templates so the examples show what those templates presently produce in articles. Whatever the "present" appearance is with future versions of the templates. Well, except for that hand-coded footnote-like number that someone inserted. (SEWilco 04:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC))

You deleted the example I gave, which is how most people currently write references, and replaced it with a template, which you prefer, but which isn't used as often. By all means, add your template as another example, but please don't delete mine. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 06:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I would recommend that the examples of citation style do NOT use templates, since template use is not mandatory. —Morven 06:23, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Also templates are used. (SEWilco 06:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC))

I agree that it's best to leave templates out of it, except perhaps as extra examples. I've never been able to see the point of them because it's faster to type the citation without the template. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:55, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

They produce a consistent appearance and are easier for automation to parse. (SEWilco 01:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC))

Harvard references not being accepted at WP:FAC

I submitted an article (Canon T90) for featured article status. I had used Harvard-style references. These were not found acceptable by at least one FAC regular, who pushed inote heavily. I'm not very keen on inote, and I notice that this page does not mention it at all. I chose to avoid the issue by switching to Footnote style.

It seems to me that this is another case of the FAC regulars deciding their personal opinions over-ride Wikipedia's style guide. Any other people encountered this? —Morven 05:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I was going to say the below, but upon looking at the article, the problem is you have a strange mix of footnotes and Harvard referencing. There is only one Harvard style reference in the text, but all of the notes have them which is very strange in my opinion. Why not just have each note in the notes section contain the full reference information? I've left the below for general information though. - Taxman ^Talk 11:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Don't worry, that will more or less be ignored. Unless there is some recent consensus that I am missing, it has long been held that there is no consensus standard for the format of references, and until there is, any form that contains the full reference information somewhere in the page is acceptable. That means objections based on reference format aren't valid. - Taxman ^Talk 11:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Prior to the comments, the article only contained Harvard references. The notes did not contain the full reference information because (a) all references should be in References, and (b) I didn't want to duplicate information between Notes and References. However, I've now changed them so that the Notes section still describes the source in text and links and the References section gives full information. The lone Harvard reference was simply one I hadn't noticed to convert. —Morven 17:29, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you could add a link here to a version that you provided/supported and stood at the beginning of the dispute prior to the introduction of compromises to achieve FAC acceptance? That might help clarify this matter. Courtland 04:28, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Publishing dates in book citations

When referring to books with multiple editions, should we use the first date the book was published, the last, or both? This should be made clear in the style guide. --Dforest 10:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The date of the copy which you're reading. (SEWilco 17:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC))

What if you're adding a reference to a book someone else mentioned without citing? Or cases when you aren't quoting from the book, don't have a copy, but make reference to it? Dforest 18:19, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Sounds as if you then don't know the date. (SEWilco 18:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC))

While it is standard to indicate the date of the copy which you're reading, it can also be useful to indicate additionally an "originally published" date, especially if this would be highly relevant to understanding the nature of the material. For example, when citing a 1980 reprint of a 1937 book on Nazism, I would certainly want to indicate the date of original publication, because it radically changes the apparent nature of the document. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Right. The reason I bring this up is that I wanted to give an ISBN for a book mentioned, but not quoted, in the article Plain English. Rather than include it in the article text, I thought it better to give a full reference including publishing information. I wasn't sure in that case whether it is better to give the original date or the date of the most recent edition available. The original date would be useful in a chronology, such as of an author's works, but the most recent date would be useful for someone wanting to obtain a current edition of the book. --Dforest 02:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

On requiring a single official source

"It is important that all citations in a given article refer to the same edition by the same publisher"

Why must an article use only a single edition of a book? Editors have to go find the specific edition used by a previous editor before they can add new material? (SEWilco 19:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)) You raise a valid point, but I think we should discuss how best to handle this before making changes. Imagine we refer to a book and provide page numbers for quotes and parts of the book that deal with the points made in the wikipedia article. Now imagine being a reader of the article. It is important to use the same edition so readers can find one edition of the book and find all the cited stuff because any page numbers in citations correspond to the copy of the book the readers has. We don't want readers to have to find three or four copies of the book to be able to find the pages cited. Nor do we want a reader to have one edition of the book, but the page numbers do not correspond so it is a pain in the ass to find those passages. This is why real books and journal articles always refer to one, specified, edition of a book.

Obviously we want the edition to be one that would be easy for readers and editors to find. I do not think that should be too hard. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Didn't you already make changes before discussion? Editors have to use whatever sources they have to. It is important that whatever edition is used be properly cited, but that does not rule out the use of other properly cited editions. The author of a paper book rarely has reason to use more than one copy of a source, but Wikipedia is not static paper. In encyclopedic time scales there is no easy-to-find edition. We can't expect a book which is now in the 2nd edition to be "easy to find" in ten years and when bookstores are carrying the 6th edition. Go to a used bookstore and pick at random any book in its 4th edition, then try to find its 2nd edition. (SEWilco 22:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC))

Would you agree that it would be ideal that all citations come from the same edition, although if contributors cannot access the same edition, they can use others, and make it clear which edition they are using in the citations/references? Frankly, I think most contributors will have access to the same edition. And more than that, I think different contributors usually bring to the article points from different books, not different editions of the same book.Slrubenstein | Talk 23:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

They just need to make clear which books and editions they are using. WP:CITE can not require that only one source be used. (SEWilco 02:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC))

I strongly disagree that "most contributors will have access to the same edition." Some libraries are more apt than others to keep older editions when a new edition is released (and bookstores much less so). And let's not forget the English Wikipedia has contributors from around the world, and some editions, of classical texts, for example, will simply not be widely available outside their country of publication.

So if an edition is agreed upon by consensus, what happens when a new edition is released? Would consensus then have to be reached again to cite the new version? Then someone would have to cross-reference all the page numbers to the new edition, and other editors would have to obtain the new edition to verify the accuracy of the new citations. What about books that have drastic changes or omissions from one edition to another? What about books that are compiled yearly and thus change considerably in content? What about books with multiple translations such as the Bible? Certainly Wikipedians be allowed to compare the differences between editions.

While I would agree that in some cases it would be advantageous to cite a single edition, there are numerous cases in which it is neither practical nor advantageous. The very top of this style guide states "Wikipedia articles should heed these rules." It should be made very clear that this is a guideline rather than a hard-and-fast rule. --Dforest 03:30, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I think I see what happened. The phrasing:

"It is important that all citations refer to the same edition by the same publisher, and that this information be included in the reference at the end of the article."

was emphasizing that when an article refers to a source, all those references must be to the same source (including same edition), and that source must be cited. However, when Slrubenstein added "in a given article" [2] then the meaning shifted from "every mention of one publication (different editions are different publications)" to also having the meaning of "every mention of a book must be to the same edition". We need a phrasing which emphasizes each source is distinct, whether it carries the same title as another or not. (SEWilco 05:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC))

I do not see how my adding "in a given article" creates the meaning you suggest. All it means — certainly, all I intended it to mean, but also all it still means to me, is that just because one article in Wikipedia uses one edition or a book, doesn't mean that every article in Wikipedia that refers to that book needs to use the same edition. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I recognize you're talking about a single article, and one meaning of the phrasing is to imply that only a single edition is allowed. (SEWilco 03:33, 11 November 2005 (UTC))

I don't get that meaning either, SE. I think "in a given article" means what SLR intended it to mean. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The phrasing should indicate, as SLR stated, that using more than one edition of a book is not prohibited but must be properly identified (in references and citations). (SEWilco 06:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC))

You are changing the subject, SEWilco. Whether or not using more than one edition of a book in a single article should be prohibited is one issue, and one worth discussion. But you rasied another issue: "However, when Slrubenstein added "in a given article"" that this new phrase changed the meaning of the policy, to mean that one should only use one edition of a work. And my reply is, you are wrong. Your claim is wrong. My adding those four words does not create the meaning you claim it does. No native speaker of English would think that those words create the meaning you claim it does. You are misconstruing what I said, which is unfair. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:35, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

That phrasing has more than one meaning. Someone needs to rephrase it. (SEWilco 19:44, 11 November 2005 (UTC))

Please list the various and distinct meanings of the phrase "in a given article." (I ask because I honestly have no idea what you are talking about). Slrubenstein | Talk 23:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm talking about "It is important that all citations in a given article refer to the same edition by the same publisher" implying that only a single edition for one book is acceptable. (SEWilco 05:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC))

SEWilco, please try to focus, not just on what I am saying but on what you have said.

1. you wrote: "However, when Slrubenstein added "in a given article" [3] then the meaning shifted from "every mention of one publication (different editions are different publications)" to also having the meaning of "every mention of a book must be to the same edition"."
2. in response, I wrote "I do not see how my adding 'in a given article'creates the meaning you suggest."
3. in response you wrote "one meaning of the phrasing is to imply that only a single edition is allowed."
4. in response I wrote "My adding those four words does not create the meaning you claim it does."
5. in response you wrote "That phrasing has more than one meaning."
6. in response, I wrote "Please list the various and distinct meanings of the phrase 'in a given article.'" Please note that this four word phrase is exactly the phrase you called attention to in number 1.
7. in response, you wrote: "I'm talking about "It is important that all citations in a given article refer to the same edition by the same publisher"" Please note that you have just changed the subject again.

Above (number 1) I quote you referring to a four word phrase I introduced. I responded to what you wrote. Now you tell me you were talking about a different phrase. You are being disingenuous and obfuscotory, and evasive. No. 1, above, is a direct quote of what you said. YOU wrote "However, when Slrubenstein added "in a given article"" I challenged you on your interpretation of that phrase. How can you now say you were talking about something else? youwrote that you were talking about how my adding "in a given article" changed the meaning of that part of the policy. You cannot deny that you wrote it, it is right there. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

In this entire section I've been referring to the phrasing which is at the top of the section: "It is important that all citations in a given article refer to the same edition by the same publisher". My rephrasings got reverted, so you try to fix it. (SEWilco 03:58, 13 November 2005 (UTC))

I agree with SEWilco that the phrasing "It is important that all citations in a given article refer to the same edition by the same publisher" implies that every mention of a book must be to the same edition. Are there any objections to SEWilco's last edit:

It is important that all citations in a given article include in the reference at the end of the article the publication year and edition which was used as a source by a contributor.

This was reverted by Slrubenstein without explanation. Dforest 05:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Dforest, are you envisioning a situation where four editors cite the same book four times, using four different editions, and cite those different editions both in the text (say, as a Harvard reference) and also in the References section? The words "dog's breakfast" spring to mind. ;-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

That would be an extreme case, but we shouldn't discourage editors from citing different editions of a text. No doubt in some cases there might be good reason for doing so, if one edition omits information available in another. What about the Bible, where different editions may have drastically different meanings? (Perhaps we need a more specific definition of "edition".) On the other hand, if contributors are required to cite their particular edition of a text, we could have dozens of citations of essentially the same source. Contributors should use their discretion to determine if their edition merits an additional citation. Dforest 06:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Consolidation of citations can also happen. An editor might confirm all the citations to several editions exist within a single edition and replace references to several editions with a single one. But use of a single edition should not be mandatory. (SEWilco 17:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC))

We should encourage editors to use the same edition, but make allowances for when that is impossible. In any event, I still do not understand why SEWilco thinks that it was my edition of "in a given article" that shifted the meaning of the sentence in question. SEWilco now says he was not referring to that phrase. But if you look at the top of this section, you will see that he is being disingenuous. SEWilco wrote that my adding the phrase "in a given article" shifted the meaning to mean "every mention of a book must be to the same edition." SEWilco was indeed referring to the phrase "in a given article" — just look up top, that is what he says — and I still do not understand why. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I was referring to the meanings created by the addition of that phrase. Whether you understand why the change altered the meaning, can you suggest phrasing which clarifies that each source should be properly identified? (SEWilco 17:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC))

The addition by Slrubenstein of "Ideally" along with other rephrasing does make more apparent that several editions may be used although that is not optimal for a polished article. The added mention of page number problems also helps remind people to use sourcing with enough detail to be verifiable. (SEWilco 19:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC))

The fact remains that using multiple editions creates huge problems for in-line references, which is why publishers and journals don't allow it. In any event, you still haven't answered my question. I added a phrase, "in a given article," and you made claims about &again, I am using your words: "I was referring to the meanings created by the addition of that phrase." Please explain what meaning you think that phrase added, and why. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:33, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Adding "in a given article" changed the focus from the citation to the article. The previous meaning was merely emphasis that a citation must properly identify to what edition it refers. The new phrasing added the meaning that all citations in an article must be to a single edition, implying that no more than one edition may be in an article. (SEWilco 15:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC))

What on earth are you talking about? You are not making any sense. #The phrase in no way shifted the focus of the sentence. Do you understand English grammar? The sentences "It is important that all citations in a given article refer to the same edition by the same publisher" and "It is important that all citations refer to the same edition by the same publisher" have the same subject and the same object.

1. The original sentence, "It is important that all citations refer to the same edition by the same publisher" already has the meaning "that all citations in an article must be to a single edition." It does not at all matter that the words "in an article" are not in that sentence, because this is a style guideline for wikipedia articles ALL guidelines refer to Wikipedia articles!
2. The original sentence, "It is important that all citations refer to the same edition by the same publisher" must be referring to Wikipedia articles, but does not make clear whether all wikipedia articles have to refer to the same edition of a book, or some Wikipedia articles have to refer to the same edition of a book, or only one article has to refer to the same edition
3. Adding the phrase "in a given article" makes it clear that the guideline applies to only one article, not all articles. This is the only shift in meaning.

I really wish you would study up on English grammar before you make arguments about English. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the focus of the sentence was not changed. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, I think you are in the right on the substance of this, but it is still not a reason to insult another contributor. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, I appreciate your point but have to say, in part at least my remark is not an insult but a constructive comment: SEWilco has argued over the wording of this and other pages with myself, SlimVirgin, and others, when it is clear that he simply does not follow proper English syntax or usage. If he wants to argue over the wording of a policy or guideline and the wording is in English, he needs to acknowledge his limitations with English or work to overcome them. That said, I acknowledge I feel great frustration and if you think my comments express irritation, you are right and I do regret that coming through. But I have gotten into long, time-consuming debates with SEWilco over a number of things, and it has become evident to me that the source of the debate is his either deliberately misconstruing my comment from the beginning, or his serious deficit in English syntax and usage. I would actually rather think he was not willfully misrepresenting what I wrote. But if he was not, then all that is left to say is, he really needs to study English grammar. Otherwise, we are left with long pointless debates that waste time and make no sense. Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 16:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction?

NUMBER 1

External_links/Further_reading (this wikipage):

"The ==External links== or ==Further reading== section is placed after the references section, and offers books, articles, and links to websites related to the topic that might be of interest to the reader, but which have not been used as sources for the article."

So this sentence says:

1. References
2. External links

NUMBER 2

Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Layout:

Lists

1. 1.1.6.3 External links
2. 1.1.6.4 References

Which is it? I think it is #2. Am I correct? User:Travb

Thanks for pointing this out, Travb. This page is correct; the other page has been changed, so they're now consistent. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 09:09, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Foreword in Book

I have quoted a person from the foreword to a book. Another contributor, while acknowledging the veracity of the quote, has advised that Wikipedia requires that quotes can only be used if from the actual book author, not from the person contributing the foreword. I can find no such rule. I am attributing the quote to the foreword author, not to the book's author, so that is not an issue. Is there such a rule? And if there is such a rule, does this make any sense? Thanks for any assistance. Jtmichcock 21:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the issues are the reliability of the source and properly citing it. The location and format are factors in that. However, we could use something scribbled on peculiar surfaces. The message JFK wrote on a coconut could be quoted and cited as a source. (SEWilco 22:23, 13 November 2005 (UTC))

Assuming that your description here is accurate, you are totally in the right. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:11, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jmabel. SEWilco is confusing the matter. JFK writing something on a coconut shell would not be a citable source since it is not verifiable. The point is not that "it doesn't matter what matter the writing is in or on," but rather "is it a verifiable source?" If you provide the appropriate information so that I can read the quote for myself, you are on safe ground. It is pretty common in journals to read a quote where the citation is (Quoted in ....) Slrubenstein | Talk 01:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course the coconut shell would have to be verifiable, that's part of "reliability of the source". The citation would have to provide enough information for verification. In the case of this foreword, that involves mentioning both the author of the book and of the foreword. The book's citation requires its author (so one can find the book), and the quote's sourcing requires the author of the foreword (both to credit the foreword's author and to help confirm the relevant section of text). (SEWilco 02:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC))

The quotation has been verified. The contributor has seen the book's text as have I. The dispute is whether the foreword to the book is a "primary source." My position is that it doesn't matter if an author writes a book or contributes a foreword to another person's book, in either event the person writing can be quoted. Jtmichcock 02:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely. I cannot imagine a reason for saying that the fact that something is a foreword makes it uncitatble. It is of course necessary to be clear that you are citing the foreword, not the main body of the book. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:53, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

A citable source for WP is one published by a credible publisher. Writing something on a coconut shell doesn't constitute publication. A foreword in a book is part of the book's contents, just like any other part. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 06:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel and SlimVirgin are absolutely correct. The quote to which you refer would be a primary source only if it were a handwritten inscription (like the silly coconut example) -- but if it is a forward or prologue or preface, if it is actually a part of the published text, then it is a verifiable and citable source in compliance with our NOR policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks to all for your assistance. I have referred the person over to the discussion here and my text hasn't been deleted for a while. So I think this has helped. Jtmichcock 13:59, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Good, please come back here if it does get deleted. Published information is verifiable, whether in the foreward or the book contents. As long as it is properly attributed, there is no issue with it. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:47, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Style identification

Does the style which just appeared at Kyoto Protocol have a name? (SEWilco 03:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC))

• UNFCCC.int "UNFCCC Status of Ratification". Retrieved on November 15, 2005.
• Climnet "CAN Europe: Ratification Calendar - up-to-date score on ratification of the Kyoto Protocol, time-table and dates of events and decisions up until the WSSD Johannesburg summit and beyond". Retrieved on November 15, 2005.
• Pdf.wri.org ""Getting It Right: Emerging Markets for Storing Carbon in Forests"". Retrieved on November 15, 2005.
• Mosnews.com "Russian Government Approves Kyoto Protocol Ratification - MONEY - MOSNEWS.COM". Retrieved on November 15, 2005.

How about Vsmith's modified Harvard compromise style? :-) You've even adopted it in your reverts, SEW. That said, it was a preliminary effort to achieve both inline links as the consensus of the page indicates along with a more complete reference section (that's for the rest of the audience as SEW knows this). My intention, if and when SEW quits reverting, is to work it into a more normal Harvard style reference section - while maintaining inline links direct to the web references within the article. Direct inline links were the norm for the article prior to SEW's sudden change, without discussion or consensus, to his pet notes method. Please view the history of the page and the talk there for details. I had no intention of clogging this talk with this, then I came across SEW's question above. Thanks, Vsmith 00:39, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I was asking because although the style resembles Harvard referencing style, generally the name of the author or institution is called for in the links. (SEWilco 18:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC))

Here's the relevant section of Wikipedia:Cite sources#How to Cite Sources: "If contributors differ as to the appropriate style of citation, they should defer to the article's main content contributors in deciding the most suitable format for the presentation of references. If no agreement can be reached, the style used should be that of the first major contributor."

When using embedded links, which are perfectly acceptable and preferred by most editors (and, I would guess, by most readers), the style is to do this [4] with a full citation in the References section, and not this The Guardian. The full citation in References would look like this:

• "Secrecy gag prompted by fear of new Blair-Bush revelations" by Richard Norton-Taylor and Michael White, The Guardian, November 24, 2005, retrieved November 24, 2005.

Personally, I only add "retrieved on" when there are insufficent other details e.g. no publication date. But otherwise I don't bother with that. The point of the citation is to enable the reader to be able to find the article should the link go dead. Hope this helps. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I replaced a mess of URL-only uncited links with citations using links of a style similar to the original appearance. Vsmith recently changed to the above Harvard-like style. (SEWilco 18:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC))

Wikipedia:Cite sources has a summary of those points. Actually, URL-only links are not perfectly acceptable. As Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) states, there should be a title (descriptive text) as part of an external link. Wikipedia:Verifiability points out that it should be clear which statement used which reference. Crosslinking the text and corresponding citation make that apparent. When only a numbered URL-only link is provided, one has to match the URLs manually to find the corresponding citation. See Wikipedia:Footnotes for details on linking text and citations. (SEWilco 18:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC))

URL-only links SHOULD NOT have a "descriptive text" added in the article, and SHOULD have one added in the References section or in Further reading. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 06:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Are URL-only links an acceptable citation style?

A straw poll is being taken based on whether using only URLs in an article is an acceptable style for citing sources instead of having more detailed citations. See Talk:Global cooling#SEWilco.2C disruptive reverts.2C and citations. (SEWilco 23:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC))

SEWilco is presenting a misleading view of the debate. The real debate, which he has escalated into a revert war on both Global cooling and Kyoto protocol, is over his pushing of his cumbersome footnotes style into these articles with no regard to the consensus of the editors working on these articles. He has been advised against this [5]. Please carefully consider the debate history on those articles if you plan to comment. Vsmith 01:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Vsmith is presenting a misleading view of the situation, where the original article had dead URL-only links with numbered format, being replaced with standard Wikipedia:Footnote numbered links to citations. See the discussion in Talk:Global cooling, and if you wish see Vsmith's alternative whose errors and weaknesses are described in Talk:Kyoto Protocol. While he complains of consensus, Vsmith's edit is even more dramatic a style change than numbered links. (SEWilco 05:59, 25 November 2005 (UTC))

Please see also Wikipedia:Requests for comment/SEWilco. William M. Connolley 10:15, 25 November 2005 (UTC).

References/external links headers name-change proposal

There's a proposal at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#References_title_misread_as_non-web_External_links to change the References header to "Sources", and External links to "Further reading". So far, the proposal has been accepted by all the editors on the page, but because Wikipedia:Verifiability is a policy page, I'm putting it out for further discussion before changing it.

The reason for the proposal is that using "References" and "External links" is confusing. Sources are supposed to be listed under References, and any further reading is listed under Further reading or External links. But many editors think that any external links, whether used as sources or not, should go under External links, so then they list any material that isn't online, like books, under References, even if not used as a source. To cut through all this confusion, the proposal is to change the headers to Sources and Further reading, which are self-explanatory, and don't make the online/offline distinction. Comments would be welcomed. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:53, 25 November 2005 (UTC) 'Agree to change

1. Slrubenstein | [[User talk:Slrubenstein|Talk]] 23:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm correcting a minor oversight, plus proofreading the article

As a newcomer in Wikipedia, but highly experienced outside of WP, who takes seriously his duty to help other newcomers in the future, I feel forced to improve articles like Wikipedia:Footnotes which I'd say was down around 5 (on a 0-100 scale) for clarity and this one which I'd say is about 99 for clarity (=humanly perfect) but has a minor oversight or omission. (I'd say I only raised Footnotes to a 10 because I'm not able to handle the last half of it.) I absolutely HATE this kind of tedious, boring work, for both articles, but am capable in this area... and who else will do such burdensome work?
I'll just proofread right from beginning to end, quickly, one section at a time, and then come back here to explain my changes, if needed, every few sections before I forget my changes.
Section=Complete citations in a "References" section : Neither I nor the average reader/user can understand "inverted commas" enclosing the title of an article, I'm sure, so I changed it to "quotes". Maybe this text was copied from a very old source, since quotes did look like inverted commas in my youth. Similarly, the ISBN information seemed to be missing from the text.
Subsection=What footnotes are normally used for : I and surely most other engineers or scientists or technical people with all of our complications which absolutely require footnotes to help the reader, do feel crummy when they read that footnotes are normally used "for tangential comments or information of interest only to a small number of specialists." I deleted "only to a small number of specialists," trying to change as little as possible.
Subsection=(Correcting a minor oversight in) the subsection Embedded HTML links : I inserted a paragraph repeating the same example link but now using a text fragment following a space in the single square brackets, so the reader clicks on the text fragment rather than on an automatically generated number. This addition merely corrects an oversight in the article. Let me point out that if there are any users who might wish to disallow this type of embedded HTML link, they would thereby be disallowing automatically numbered footnotes which this article otherwise permits. For7thGen 00:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Frank, it wasn't an oversight. We like to distinguish clearly in articles between internal and external links. Typing chaos indicates that's internal, and typing [6] tells the reader they're being taken to another website more clearly that typing The Guardian does. It can also be useful to have the links numbered. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Slim, may I call you Slim? I do have questions for you in response to your good message on the above talk page. 1st, do you wish to disallow automatically numbered footnotes to coexist with embedded HTML links in the same article? If you answer no, you do allow this, then please tell me exactly how it can be accomplished?

Yes, of course you may call me Slim. ;-) We do allow embedded links to coexist on the same page with footnotes, but the reality is that, once the footnote system has been established in an article, if someone adds an embedded link, it's usually converted into a footnote by another editor. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

2nd, and far less important than the main question(s) above, your revert description was "no link title should be added to embedded links in articles, only in further reading or references." Please tell me where I can find this statement? I would like the source for this or for a substantially-the-same statement which you feel is the most official or highest credibility source in Wikipedia-land. Merely so that I can see where you coming from. Thanks for your kind help, especially on the 1st question(s). For7thGen 01:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

It's in this article, in the Manual of Style, and in Wikipedia:Verifiability, which is policy. Of the three, the policy page is the most authoritative (editing in accordance with policy is mandatory), followed by WP:CITE (at least in regard to how to cite sources), followed by the MoS. See WP:V#When_adding_information and WP:CITE#Embedded_HTML_links. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand your latest question on my talk page (questions here, please). If a particular article does it differently, it's wrong. See above for what the policy and guidelines say. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm finally able to tell you, Slim, that I'm working the problem, and I've learned at least a bit more about how the problem looks seen from your side. I'm writing a Coexistence proposal currently and anyone else is welcome to look at it in draft form and also to edit it themselves. Also, you or anyone else please inform me where to post it. It might be 3 or 4 or 5 pages and right now it is at User:For7thGen/subpage 3 For7thGen 06:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Massive feature creep... again

I see this has become a massive tome for academics. A pity, then, that Wikipedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia and nothing more. It's nice if people use Harvard style or whatever, but surely the most important bit is just encouraging editors to tell readers where they got their info from??

It is worth emphasising that people do not read or heed these kinds of texts. Dan100 (Talk) 18:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

• I think I agree, at least in spirit. I believe it is important that all articles have good references. I do not believe we should dictate the precise form of these references. I do believe we need to explain why references are important (what their functions are) and also provide clear templates for different ways of doing it (without mandating one over another). Slrubenstein | Talk 20:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

• Any published encyclopedia has all of its facts individually checked against sources by the publisher, before it is allowed to be published. We should be held to the same standards if we are to be considered an encyclopedia worthy of reading. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-12-3 20:47

• • Is that why we make such sport of spotting errors in Britannica and other encyclopedia's? The assertion that Any published encyclopedia has all of its facts individually checked against sources by the publisher, before it is allowed to be published. is a patent fallacy. I don't disagree that most commercial encyclopedia publishers have a much more rigorous fact-checking regimen than Wikipedia. I'm not so sure that we should want to emulate such anticeptic regimes. We should certainly make this directive as clear as possible so that well-intentioned contributors are encouraged to cite sources. However, I think some people also tend to use this policy to bludgeon those who do not cite their sources. As a general-use encyclopedia, Wikipedia is phenomenal and already is an encyclopedia worthy of reading. Is it perfect? No, of course not. But the ideal of a perfectly authoritative reference is a chimera. No encyclopedia is perfect and it is extremely unlikely that any ever shall be. Wikipedia operates on a radically different model than commercial publishers. We need to work with and reinforce the strengths of this different model, rather than hold ourselves hostage to impossible standards. older≠wiser 21:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

• There are several formats for providing citations of sources. Not all source citations are equal. More detail is preferred over less detail. "November 22, 2005: President Pardons "Marshmallow and Yam" in Annual Turkey Ceremony [7]" is preferred over "President Bush pardons turkeys [8]", which is preferred over "[9]", which is preferred over "George said". WP:V states policy. WP:CITE has details; creeping details. (SEWilco 05:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC))

Enormous overkill

I am famous as a Bureaucratic Fuck, but what's going on here is way over even me. I understand that the goal is to provide better verifiability of information, but the prime idea of wikipedia as an open source project was that the sheer number of many editors should guarantee both NPOV and verification. Many articles are edited by hundreds of people, many of them addind 1-2 facts. If following strictly this rule, the articles will eventually trun into ugly collections of superscripts and enormous lists of references. It is OK to have a list of fundamental sources or to provide a citation is the case of dispute, but to require a citaion for each and every addition is utterly ridiculous.

Also some seem to forget that this wikipage is a guideline, not a policy. mikka (t) 22:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Mikka, even if this were a policy (and I completely agree with you that it is not), like all policies it would express an ideal to which we are supposed to strive, not solely through our individual efforts but through collective efforts. One contributor can add a valuable fact to an article without knowing the proper source; another contributor can go find the source and put it in. Isn't this how everything here works? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

You totally miss the point: where have you seen encyclopedias with each fact superscripted? It is one thing to source obscure data, opinions, or things that require exact quotation, like various statistics. But to source general knowledge available at hundreds of sources A wikipedia is not a sci journal article. mikka (t) 22:40, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, I consider this kind of messages trolling:

Hello, good work on Rises and falls, and thanks for the contribution. However, you forgot to add any references to the article. Keeping Wikipedia accurate and verifiable is very important, and there is currently a push to encourage editors to cite the sources they used when adding content. From what websites, books, or other places did you learn the information that you added to Rises and falls? Would it be possible for you to mention them in the article? You can simply add links, or there are several different citation methods list at WP:CITET. Thanks! — BRIAN0918 • 2005-12-4 20:26

So, for each and every policy we will put a warning onto each user's page each time he is a bad boy? Not to say that articles should be discussed at article's talk pages. It is one thing to point newcomers at things he does not possibly know. I myself wrote innumerable number of messages about image copyrighting, but what some our colleagues do here is way overboard. mikka (t) 22:40, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

It looks like this year sees a new generation of wikipedians whose prime interest is not writing articles but policies, whose main domain are talk pages. I am well aware that some people are born to work, while others are born to rule, but I am disgusted with this "social stratification" in wikipedia, which attracts people who just love to twist other's arms for common good. mikka (t) 22:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Third, invitation of web references is a road to disaster. There is nothing more frustrating than to click at a link only to see 404. External links is a maintenance hightmare and most inrelieble source possible: how you can be sure that tomorrow the site in question will confirm your sentence, say something relevant at all, or exist at all? mikka (t) 22:54, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. I had a very similar discussion about workers versus the surveillance team with Angela already two or three years ago when that nonsense was started. Also the "verifiable sources" guideline can be carried ad absurdum, as can clearly be seen at Talk:Stephen Dixon. <KF> 23:04, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for copying and pasting my comments around as you please. Feel free to continue. -- BRIAN0918  23:10, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, but I don't need your encouragement.This is Wikipedia after all. <KF> 23:33, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this conversation should be consolidated with Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#A_better_way_of_getting_articles_referenced? - SimonP 00:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Mikka, you ask, "where have you seen encyclopedias with each fact superscripted?" To that I answer, "where have you seen encyclopedias written on an open source basis?" If we allowed only trusted people to edit, we would not need such a goal. But that's not what we are.

That said, I personally don't think every fact needs a reference, but I do think that at the moment Wikipedia remains, on the whole, undersourced, not oversourced, and I don't think that I have seen a case were accurate references were ever harmful additions (although I wouldn't be astounded if someone can point at such a case). I am extremely suspicious of utterly unreferenced articles on things I don't basically know about. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yup. So requiring citations annoys you Mikka, BFD. Think about it from the other way around. Material without a source is nearly useless to Wikipedia if it can't be verified. In fact I'd say it can be worse than if it wasn't there. All time spent adding material without doing research with reliable sources is wasted. Even if you disagree with my view, which one is the bigger gain--demonstrably reliable material or not having facts cited/having to cite them? And while the format of the citations (this page) is guideline, requiring verifiability is of course policy. - Taxman ^Talk 13:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

You are not deading what I was writing: verification is by the multitude of editors. We are not living in middle ages, so that there was only one authority and everyone had to read an ancient gimoire to find a fact. I didn't deny references completely; I agreed that a reasonable amount of references of general reading, of someone's quotations and of obscure fact is OK, but to require a reference to each fact added is an absurd. mikka (t) 17:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I read it, it just doesn't hold up. Lots of articles are read by lots of people that don't know the topic (and even some that do) but still contain horrid errors. The only successful way to combat that is to cite sources. Now I would be most happy with a way the footnotes or whatever form of citation could be hidden from users if they so desire to not be annoyed by them. I do agree they can make readability suffer a bit. But I would say the gain from easily verifiable facts is infinitely greater that the cost of both having to do the research and the cost to readability. I've yet to hear any coherent arguments on any true benefits to less strenuous encouragement of citations and better referencing that are more important that the benefits to increased verifiability. The basic act of forcing an editor to do some research to back up their position is very likely to result in more accurate material and typically reduces POV wars and the like. Is there a limit? Probably, but we're terribly far from it, and like I said, any downsides to greater referencing and citation could pretty much be eliminated by making them invisible. - Taxman ^Talk 18:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Mikka: any published reference book, and in particular encyclopedias, has every single one of its facts listed, connected with a source, and checked against that source, before it is published. They don't list the citations in the final version, of course, because they don't want to clutter up the text. Just because you don't see the citations does not mean they never checked the content. Why we don't hold ourselves up to the same standard, I don't know. It it most likely out of laziness. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-12-5 13:48

• In this analogy, what exaclty would it mean for Wikipedia to be "published"? Wikipedia operates on a very different model than commercial publishers. Of course we need to strive for the highest degree of reliability possible. But let's be realistic about what it is possible to accomplish and in what time frame with a Wiki. I, for one (and I don't think I'm alone), find it utterly absurd to expect EVERY SINGLE FACT to be explitly cited. older≠wiser 14:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Of course not every single fact would have to be cited. Sources have to have their own context too. Thus the simplest of facts will take care of themselves. — BRIAN0918 • 2005-12-5 14:15
  • "every ref book... every single... checked against source": False. mikka (t) 17:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
    • User:Brian0918 may have omitted the adjective "useful" before the words "reference book". Regardless, Wikipedia cannot assert any authority beyond its referencing. Therefore, everything needs to be referenced. Jkelly 17:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
      • Everything needs to be referenced? See Talk:Wiktionary#Unsourced? for another pointless discussion on the subject. A group of people seems to be claiming that citing sources is ever so important, but no one seems to be able to give an answer on how one should go about it. <KF> 23:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

This discussion is missing a key point. References can be invisible. Thus, every fact could be referenced and at the same time the page could be uncluttered. This can be achieved either with Template:inote or with technical means such as style sheets in other referencing systems. At present, based on a recent quality survey which I can't find any more, the proportion of articles which have one reference is quite small and the proportion which have five or more is negligable. Worrying about too many references is like worrying about the lack of life rafts on the Apollo 12 lunar lander module.  :-) Mozzerati 21:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

This needs to be EASIER

This article, on citing sources is very intimidating.

Here's a problem. It's often harder to cite a source than it is to even find a source. For example, I was just writing an article about Boulder, Colorado and my source is the City of Boulder Website. Now, that should be easy to cite, but the fact is there is no obvious way to do it. There should be a citation wizard or better macros for citations, perhaps a consistent, standard way of doing it.

The complexity, decisions, and lack of automation in citations is very much a barrier that will keep authors from citing sources as much as the could.

Fix it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkinder (talk • contribs)

What to do when a reference link "goes dead"

Blimey. I haven't been watching this page and it has certainly changed a bit. What concerns me is the above section, specifically where it says:

• Wikipedia does not currently have a policy for what to do when none of those strategies succeed, but here are some suggestions.

• • Be careful not to remove a link prematurely. If you reach the site, and it says the particular page is gone, that is pretty definitive, but one failure to access a site does not mean it is permanently dead. In the latter case, note (in an HTML comment) the date on which the link seemed dead.
  • You can place the link in an HTML comment, marked as dead. Date the comment. The Internet Archive deliberately lags by six months, so there is a fair chance that at any time in the next six months we might, again, be able to get an equivalent link.
  • If the link has been dead more than six months, keep it (commented out) as the record of a reference used.

I'm puzzled, because we used to have a poloicy, it used to be on this page and it read:

• Because the Web is dynamic, it is possible that a web page used as a reference may become inactive. Do not remove such inactive references—even inactive, they still record the sources that were used. Make a note of the date that the original link was found to be inactive. If an Internet Archive copy of the page is known, add a link to that.

Is there any reason why it can't be reinstated. Hiding talk 22:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I mostly agree with the change you made, but we lost the statement about the Internet Archive lagging and the likelihood that the link may be recoverable in the future. Any chance of restoring that? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I've added in something to that effect, does that covers it? Hiding talk 14:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Changes

I think it was quite clear that this page had outgrown it's original purpose and had become very confusing, intimidating etc. I have now massively cut it down to be purely a guide to why sources should be cited, and then link to the various pages which suggest ways to do it. What was the bulk of this page is now at Wikipedia:Ways to cite sources, which I also gave a See also section pointing to the other suggested ways of citing.

I hope people will appreciate that this change had to happen, and I believe this is the right way to do it. Dan100 (Talk) 10:45, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Dan, I've reverted (as I'm sure you knew someone would), because you practically deleted the page. ;-) We already have two policies explaining why sources should be cited (WP:NOR and WP:V). We also have a guideline explaining what counts as a good source (WP:RS. This page is a style guide: explaining how to write citations. It's not meant to be read from start to finish: it's a reference page. There is no need for an extra Wikipedia:Ways to cite sources. This was it! ;-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 13:51, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added a sentence to the top to clarify. Dan, would you mind if the new page you created was deleted? It will cause confusion to have two almost identical style guides, particularly because they may end up being developed in different directions by different editors. It's important that anyone editing this page be familiar with NOR, V, and RS, because it requires vigilance to ensure they remain consistent. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 13:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I thought Dan100's changes were a step in the right direction. It made the page much more useful and easier to access. Currently it is a horrid mixture of why and howto, and is terribly confusing to someone that doesn't already know the material in it. A single page coordinating all the information an editor would need to create a properly sourced article is what is needed and Dan's version is closer to that than this one. - Taxman ^Talk 14:50, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Then the whys should be removed from this page, because it's just a style guide. I don't see the point of having two almost identical pages. Unfortunately, we have no mandatory way of citing sources, and we're unlikely to develop one because some prefer footnotes, others Harvard referencing or embedded links. Therefore, we have to offer information on all three styles, and that's why the page is so complex. But regarded as a reference work, I'm not sure I see the problem with that. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:07, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not saying that this page cannot be improved upon — all things at Wikipedia are works-in-progress. Nevertheless, if someone reads this and doesn't understand it, I would have serious doubts as to their competence to research any topic or write an encyclopedia article on it. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I've retained my changes (without using rollback, as I know admins should not use that except for vandalism). Slim, I've noticed that you revert any changes you disagree with - you practically claim ownership! I think there's a weight of opinion that this page needs to move on. Dan100 (Talk) 17:16, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Dan, I'm surprised at you: you're deleting most of a guideline without discussion. My reverting isn't claiming ownership, just restoring the status quo ante until it's discussed.

As I see it, what you've basically done is move the page to another title, while retaining a shell of a page here, which I don't see the point of. Again, this is a how to page that contains instructions on the different citation styles. What is your objection to the way the instructions are written? What is it you're trying to achieve? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe Dan has a point in that this page has become rather long and confusing; perhaps breaking out parts of it to other articles would be helpful. However, I agree with Slim that basically moving all the content from this article to another doesn't simplify - it just moves the complexity elsewhere. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 18:20, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Dan, with all due respect, it is totally unfair of you to accuse SlimVirgin of acting as she has ownership of this page. This is one of the oldest policies at Wikipedia. Many people have worked on it over the years. It reflects a long-standing consensus. It only makes sense to make any changes beyond the relatively minor (fixing links, correcting spelling mistakes, slight word-changes for the sake of clairty) only after discussion in which many people are involved. Many more than one would expect for an article, since this is a policy that affects everyone. We do not edit policies the same way we edit articles; with articles "be bold" is a well-established value for obvious reasons. I should think that the reasons for being much more cautious and conservative with policy pages is evident. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I have reverted User:Dan100's changes, pending discussion and the achievement of a consensus here. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 18:18, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Slrub, every time I make any changes to this page Sv reverts. I've noticed that happen to other editors, too.

Now, you mention history: take a look at the original version - it's a guideline, not a style guide. Work through the history and you'll an "example style" (APA) develop as a guide for people who don't know how to cite. Somehow that's taken over the page - it's gone from being a clear, concise "why you should cite" to a monstrous page which draws a lot of complaints, and certainly does not help newbie editors cite sources (or anyone else that matter!).

Take a look at how it was a year ago - clear and simple (and APA - how'd it turn into Harvard?!). A year of feature of creep has created a monster, and it's time to sort this mess out as although we've managed to write what would no doubt be a great guide to referencing for a Dphil student, it's very much aimed at the wrong level for Wikipedia.

We need to focus on what's important here: getting as many articles of Wikipedia referenced as possible, as it's what's really letting us down now more than anything (you all know what I'm referring to). Ask yourself this: what's more likely to get the casual editor to use references: a many dozen kb page of text, or a simple rationale followed by a simple guide? Dan100 (Talk) 08:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Dan, I just needed to link to something on the page for an arbcom case and when I came to find it, you had deleted it. Please stop this and say specifically what you feel is not needed. The rationale for citing sources is not on this page. It's on WP:NOR (which you have also tried to delete large sections from) and on WP:V. This page is just a how to and therefore has to contain instructions. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

But this page was just to say "cite your sources". It isn't Wikipedia:Citing sources, but cite sources, ie a rationale for why one should always cite sources (and people not doing so, imo, is the biggest problem Wikipedia has). A how-to should be on a how-to style page, such as Wikipedia:Ways to cite sources. Dan100 (Talk) 08:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Having worked a little on the page myself, I agree that it could do with some copyediting, but I fail to see how deleting most of it, or copying most of it to a different article and then deleting, is particularly helpful. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:21, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Massive deletion of a guideline that many have worked on over a long time not only makes no sense, it verges on vandalism. We always discuss massive changes - thoroughly - before making them. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Others disagree. This page should be helpful to newbies, because we all know (hopefully!) that we should cite sources. Having it subject to massive instruction creep hinders that, not helps.

Aslo Slrub, please don't accuse me of vandalism. It's not, it's moving forwards with the best interests of the encyclopedia at heart. Dan100 (Talk) 08:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Dan, the problem here is that no single person or group of people has been in control of how the source-related policies and guidelines have evolved. Because of that, there are things about the policies that none of us likes, and there are issues that don't make as much sense as they could. I think what you're really objecting to is the title of the page, not the contents, and I agree with you to some extent. I would much prefer to see the current policy page on sources, now called Wikipedia:Verifiability, be called Wikipedia:Cite sources, because the latter is self-explanatory, whereas the former isn't clear at all, and lots of people think it means they have to go out and check whether what's written in the newspapers they cite is actually true, whereas in fact it means the exact opposite (i.e. it means don't do original research). If the main source-related policy page were called Cite sources, then this page could be called "How to cite sources," which again is self-explanatory, and which could then contain all the optional instructions. If you want to propose that, I think I'd support you, unless others have strong arguments against.

The other thing, Dan, is that these pages aren't for newbies. To some extent they are, and all should have clear intros that newbies can scan for the basics. But the pages are also designed to close various loopholes that more experienced, bad-faith, POV editors use to try to get their own arguments onto pages. That's why, for example, the NOR page contains so many qualifications, which you tried to delete before. The WP:V page is the same and is likely to get more complex, not less, as the regular editors of those pages find weaknesses in the policy. The policies are bound to become more complex as the encylcopedia grows and the number of people testing its weaknesses grows too. If you want to be involved in this, you're more than welcome, but please work with us, not against us. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like case-law, and I think it's the path to madness. It would be a lot easier to make the pages simple then just use common sense in their application - writing out more and more complex examples here, that anyone can just turn around and ignore at the end of the day, doesn't really help. If people really get uppity, send them to the arbcom and let them sort it out. Dan100 (Talk) 00:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sending people to the arbcom would be more time-consuming than writing comprehensive policy pages. I agree that using common sense would be the best thing, but unfortunately it's in short supply. And there are people who genuinely don't know what original research is and don't know how or when to cite sources, because they've never done any academic or professional research. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Inline links

Just noticed this absurd recommendation:

Note that inline links of this kind are placed after the punctuation, not before it, like this. [10] New sentence about som