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Contents 1 Verifiability of WP:Policy Claims 2 Proposal to include (and in one case use as a replacement) the 'trinity' quote. 3 Does verifiability require that everyone may easily verify? 4 How to handle this case? 5 Russian wikipedia community fights for Verifiability and loses 6 Revert of 01:29, 26 August 2006 7 "The policy" 3-point summary 8 Citing that a book exists? 9 Burden of evidence 9.1 It's all subjective 10 Self-published and dubious reliability 11 Centrx's edit 12 Trolling 13 Lack of Consensus as Grounds for Revert 14 Concern 15 Objection to "Challenged"? 16 Self published sources: researchers & experts 17 Self-published and dubious sources in articles about themselves 18 Challenge/remove 19 What is the objection? 20 Document a definition of consensus for WP:V 21 Reliable source question 22 Marcel Lefebvre 23 Reference neccesary for short articles without controversial information? 24 Asking: factors to include information 25 paid resources? 26 Long Discussion moved from WP:ANI 27 Banning polemics 28 VERIFIED 29 Byron Allen, Marcus Allen, Ronnie Lott and College Cheating 30 "Third party hearsay" 31 Verifiability, not truth 31.1 Dewey Defeats Truman 32 Guilt by association 33 Frequent changes 34 The "any reader clause" 34.1 The three policies

Verifiability of WP:Policy Claims

Proposal to include (and in one case use as a replacement) the 'trinity' quote.

Following discussion here, I'm going to propose that we include the following to the lead of each policy. In the case of the NPOV policy, this also includes removing a previous quote on the matter which has been superseded.

In the words of Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales, "I consider all three of these to be different aspects of the same thing, ultimately. And at the moment, when I think about any examples of apparent tensions between the three, I think the right answer is to follow all three of them or else just leave it out of Wikipedia."

For the sake of clarity, please discuss this on Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view. --Barberio 18:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Does verifiability require that everyone may easily verify?

Does verifiability require that everyone may easily verify? I believe not; I believe that it only requires verifiability in principle. User:NYScholar seems to be arguing otherwise in this edit. Since he refers me to this page, and since I'm not terribly concerned with the particular issue in the particular article, I'm concerned with the principle, I thought I'd bring the matter here.

NYScholar says, "A source has to be verifiable by ALL Wikipedia readers, not just someone who belongs to an organization that has sent out flyers to its members." There are two different statements here. I agree with the second, but not the first. That is, if something can only be verified by members of an organization, that is probably way too narrow (especially because they would, in many cases, be expected to share a particular political view, etc.) but I do not agree that a source has to be verifiable by ALL Wikipedia readers. For example, many readers of the English-language Wikipedia can read only English; many books are not widely available; many documents (legal documents, scientific papers) might be physically available, but beyond most people's ability to read them; etc.

On the specific of a flyer sent to members: this is not, in principle, an unverifiable source, as long as either (1) someone has a copy of the flyer and can make it available in response to queries or (2) some library has it a collection of ephemera. It has roughly the same problems as any other primary source. I would agree that if (for example) the organization denies every having issues such a flyer the matter might require a strong secondary citation saying the the flyer was real but I see no reason to think that possible forgeries are not really more of an issue here than elsewhere. - Jmabel | Talk 00:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I would say that the verifiability requirement means that, in theory, anyone can access the source; i.e., that there are no artificial restrictions, such as membership in an organization, on access. In practice, we recognize that sources vary in their accessibility, so that it might be very inconvenient for many readers to examine a particular source. I think a minimum practical requirement would be that a source is available in at least several widely scattered public places (e.g., major open-access libraries) and in a form accessible to many readers (i.e., not in an extinct language known only to a few scholars). -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 03:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that with regard to documents published to a small audience like flyers, they are verifiable only insofar as they have been incorporated into some kind of public archive or library which has an index easily accessible to the public. For example, I can go to Stanford University's Web site and search for the locations of documents in particular boxes in the university archives. Then I can go to the archive and file a request for that box so that I can see that document. But if the flyers are only in the hands of various private individuals, it would be difficult for a Wikipedia editor (who is new to the particular subject) to find out which individuals still have a copy of a particular flyer on file. --Coolcaesar 05:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

How to handle this case?

Let's say I want to contribute to the article on the Jefferson Nickel. As a reference, I want to cite one of the leading books on Jefferon Nickels; The Jefferson Nickel Analyst by Bernard Nagengast. This book can be purchased by anyone with $25 to spend, and is offered by multiple vendors on the web. This book is held in extremly high regard by the community of Jefferson Nickel collectors, which is however a very small community.

However, despite this being one of the leading books in the field, it is self-published by Mr. Nagengast himself. Additionally, a search of the catalogs of the five largest libraries in the United States (Library of Congress, Havard, Boston Public, Yale, and Chicago Public) show that none of them have this book in their collections.

So, a strict reading of the Verifiability policy would prohibit using this book as a reference, even though it is the leading reference in the field. How should this be addressed? - O^O 18:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a case of WP:Ignore all rules, as long as your real world example is as nice and clear cut (and noncontroversial) as the hypothetical one you have laid out. On the other hand, if you are looking for an end-around on something other editors have been resisting, ignoring all rules may just lead to an edit war. At worst, consensus will go strongly against you, and the citation will probably be removed. On the other hand, if no one objects, you will have added something of value to Wikipedia. dryguy 20:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

WP:Ignore all rules, well, that's a good one I've never seen. My concern is pretty much accurately described in the example above. I've edited in the past on aspects of coin collecting and antique firearms. Much of the best information on these obscure topics is found in obscure references. I don't want edits thrown out just because someone considers them too difficult to verify. What I'd really like to come up with here, however, is a way to subtly tweak the policy to explicitly embrace these cases. - O^O 21:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The rules mention the case of a self-published work by an author well-known in the field. Gimmetrow 21:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, it only mentions professional researchers and professional journalists, but I think I see now how to rephrase it. - O^O 21:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Please don't change the policy without agreement. Read the lead section. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I just checked CalCat, the publicly available WorldCat subset for all California libraries. None have Mr. Nagengast's book, though you're right that it's available from several online vendors including Amazon.com. But it's already hard enough to fact-check stuff available in public libraries and the problem is that no one (who's not a numismatist) has the time or money to buy the Nagengast book and read it.

After some thought, I agree with you that we need an exception to cover such odd situations, but the exception must be narrowly tailored to keep crackpots and lunatics from sneaking their pet projects onto Wikipedia (many crackpots have self-published books advertising their conspiracy theories and the like). It's amazing to follow the Articles for deletion process for a few days and see what kind of weird stuff crops up.

I think the best way to handle this is to allow such obscure and inaccessible sources only if they are described as reliable by at least one reliable published source. Surely if Mr. Nagengast is truly the authority on Jefferson nickels, at least one numismatist will have referred to him as such in a published magazine article somewhere. What does everyone think? --Coolcaesar 21:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, in the case of Mr. Nagengast, here is a web-accesible article from CoinWorld magazine which calls this work the "best discussion of full step nickels by date and Mint" [1]. The way I phrased this restriction in my edit is "the work is generally respected or cited by other experts 'in that field". - O^O 22:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The way to handle it is to use common sense and not to bring all these issues to the policy pages in an effort to change the policy. We can't legislate for every conceivable possibility. If someone objects to your use of that source, then you can discuss further, but in the meantime, no one has, so just use your editorial judgment. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for you opinion. I take your mention of "common sense" to agree that there are times when self-published sources make sense (you can correct my opinion of your meaning if you choose). At the time, however, I prefer to clarify the policy to make it clear that these sources are acceptable under certain conditions. The exception is already there in the "professional researcher" language, it is just a matter of tweaking it. - O^O 22:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

If you agree the "professional researcher" language covers your case, then what needs to be changed in the policy? You might want to look at this discussion and others from the archives. Gimmetrow 23:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe that clause is meant to cover this case, but the language is not sufficient. Nagengast is neither a "professional researcher" or "professional journalist". I believe he is an engineer by profession. He has written a definitive book on Jefferson Nickels, but it is not his profession. - O^O 00:02, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

There are some self-published sources that you just have to use because they are the only sources. (This is my opinion, not shared in WP policy.) The Jefferson nickel example is one; others are the many self-published books on local history or any number of hobbies upon which the publisher-author is an expert. That's why the rule against self-publication is just plain silly. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 09:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I have not yet seen an example where this rule has actually prevented someone from using one of these important sources. The idea that there are self-published sources out there which seriously do harm to the neutrality of an article is much more documented. If the source is truly worthwhile it surely can fit one of the exceptions. Let's see a real example where a local history or expert source is being kept from use because of the rule before we tweak it. --Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 10:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, how about the one that User:O^O raised at the top of this section? JulesH 12:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with dryguy's response to that. I meant an example of someone protesting the use of one of these sources. Evidence that this is actually causing a problem. I am not sure policies should written in a way to cover every possiblity. Doing so just encourages wikilawyers and "Javerts" (do you know what I mean by that?). Perhaps we have already gone to far in that direction to stop now. I am unsure. If you have a proposal for changing the wording, I will certainly look at it with an open mind however.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 16:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm firmly of the opinion that the policies should always reflect how we want the site to be used in all cases. Yes, I know we have Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, which is a policy and could therefore override this policy where they disagree, but frankly the less often we need to resort to that the better.

As to the wording, I've previously advocated inserting "or notable expert" following "professional researcher". I think that would cover this case. JulesH 21:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I would very much like to policies reflect that. However to do so would involve backing the policies off some of details they now have which may not be possible. I am not sure "notable expert" helps anything. An argument could be made that any notable expert would have no need to self-publish their material. But this is all hypothetical which is whay I ask for a real example. I actually tend to dislike that whole sentance. Self-published material should only be accepted when it has been "vouched for" by a reliable source (according to normal rules), with the possible exeption of specialty fields where no traditionaly published sources specific to the field exist. I don't know why we would rule in or rule out any sources based on the author alone. --Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 00:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the effort to cover all these things with rules. As several of us were discussing at the recent Seattle meetup, what ever happened to judgment, discretion, and common sense? We are moving toward a straitjacket of rules that, in most cases, do nothing to improve the quality of articles. And this is exacerbated by an approach that tries to deal with everything by "statute", instead of simply having some regard for precedent. - Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC), apparently even more on the side of Valjean than Ms. B.

Russian wikipedia community fights for Verifiability and loses

I don't know where to put this notice, but I feel, I need to alert the community. Currently, the voting process on the Russian translation of the Verifiability is underway in the Russian part of Wikipedia. Despite all the arguments for the necessity of this most basic policy, the votes so far are distributed 2:1 (pro:con). I urge all active participants of Russian wiki who are also acive here to take a look at what happens at the voting page and to make their choice. Alexei Kouprianov 20:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know, Alexei. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh ! I've always wondered about Russian thinking. Terryeo 14:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Revert of 01:29, 26 August 2006

Did you even read what the change consisted of before you reverted it? The change did two things. First it inserted a blank line between the explanation of self-published sources and the explanation of the exception. Now, notice that the old language in the first paragraph referred to books, websites and blogs. Move on to the language of the old second paragraph, the phrase "professional researchers blog" doesn't make sense in this context. The proceding paragraph isn't about blogs, it is about a whole gamut of self-published information. So my second change is to replace "information on a professional researcher's blog" with "information in question".

Before:

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. Exceptions may occur when a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field, or a well-known professional journalist has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by reliable, third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information on a professional researcher's blog is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

After:

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

Exceptions may be when a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field, or a well-known professional journalist has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible, third-party news organizations or publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

So, are you objecting to the insertion of the blank line, or are you objecting to the broadening of "information" to include all the types being discussed, instead of just blogs? - O^O 01:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The change from "credible, third-party news organizations or publications" to "reliable third-party publications" wasn't mine. It is getting pulled in and out depending on where people choose to revert to and edit from. - O^O 02:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Please stop playing around. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about, but as long as we are mkaing requests of each other: please stop making reverts without reading and understanding the edit first. - O^O 03:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Leave people's names out of headers, and don't mess around with the policy just because you want to make a particular edit to an article. You're causing a problem here and at NOR to no-one's benefit, and I recall you did this once before. You also changed a sentence there that indicated secondary sources were preferred, then pretended not to know the policy had ever said that. Enough already. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 03:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The header I created in this talk page was accurate as I was addressing Jossi as to his revert. You are of course, free to comment, but you are not the person I was addressing. With regards to you, SlimVirgin, I have tried to assume good faith and to treat you politely, but I do not perceive that you are doing the same. I'm growing tired of you misrepresenting my actions. If you want to discuss the subtleties of NOR then I suggest we either do so there or in our personal talk pages. I don't think anyone will be well served by you pulling a debate there into an unrelated edit here.

I would appreciate it if you would treat me and my edits with more courtesy. Whether it is your intent or not, you are leaving me with the perception that you will immediately revert any change I make to the policy articles without even judging the quality of the edit. You don't expect to have that done to you, and you shouldn't do that to others. - O^O 04:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Please WP:POINT? Maybe? Thanks. And maybe going back to edit some good ole' articles rather than policy pages will do us all some good? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, I believe my edits serve only to improve the article, and I assure you I am not out to disrupt or make any philosophical point. - O^O 05:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

O^O, I'm looking at your contribs, and I don't see much in the way of editing the encyclopedia; the edits I do see are minor. Yet you magically know what the content policies should say and feel you have the right to disrupt the talk pages until you're satisfied, while insisting the volunteers whose time you're wasting should good faith. SlimVirgin ^(talk)

Thanks for ignoring my requests for civility and choosing another personal attack. Did I attempt to impugn the quality of your edits? Did I accuse you of "magically" knowing what the content policies are? Did I accuse you of disruptive behavior? No, I did none of those things. If you would like to stop wasting both of our valuable time, then I respectful ask again that you stop misrepresenting my actions and treat my edits with respect. Neither you nor Jossi appear to have any true objection to my recent edits that inserted one line of white space, and replaced "information on a professional researcher's blog" with "information in question". If you do object to the edit, then like any Wikipedia editor I welcome constructive comments. If you do not object, then I do not understand your reverts, nor do I even understand why you came here with your "stop playing around" comment. - O^O 05:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

That's what I saw too. He added a blank line. So what's the problem? Wjhonson 05:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

O^O, I just want you to know that I appreciate your input here and welcome your contributions here on the talk page (after all, that's what its here for.) Your changes to WP:V are constructive and well thought out, and I'm disappointed that those reverting you are not making the effort to state why they think reverting your changes is helping Wikipedia, but are instead trying to sidetrack any discussion of merit by bringing up irrelevant side points. I guess some people think that their "seniority" on a certain page gives them the right to push others around arbitrarily, especially newcomers who might dare to make meaningful contributions without first kowtowing to those who have edited before them. Anyway, I fully support your efforts. Please carry on trying to help Wikipedia, and ignore those who try and bite the newcomers. dryguy 14:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with biting newcomers. This is related to users with little experience in our project, attempting to change long -standing consensus about specific wording of our core policies. Comments are welcome in talk pages from anyone, including people that just started editing. What is not welcome is editing the policy despite not having consensus. As per what it says at the top of this page: The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus. 16:54, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't aid the discussion by not saying why you don't agree with the changes. If you were just reverting vandalism without much comment, that would be one thing, but you are reverting the edits of a user who I believe is acting in good faith, and you don't explain why, other than to make vague references to previous consensus. I don't see how consensus will be reached if you can't be bothered to say what it is about the changes that you disagree with. Repeatedly shouting that this page is policy and shouldn't be changed by inexperienced users will not help those users figure out how to contribute in a way that you feel is more beneficial to Wikipedia. dryguy 18:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 :-) Kim Bruning 14:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I partly agree with Dryguy here. What consensus? It seems to me that "consensus" consists of a few editors who are willing to resist change. Did we ever have a discussion on the sentence in question? Where is it? Who agreed to it? Who demurred? How was the consensus formed? Like most policies, I think that what actually happened is that someone wrote it, someone else fiddled with it, and no one has had anything much to say about it till now. Usually, when someone doesn't like something, it's because it doesn't suit some bullshit editwar they have going on somewhere else. They try to make a change to suit and they are resisted by the "guardian" editors. The change may or may not be useful but whatever the truth of that, a fight is bound to ensue. Why? Because the changer clearly is not motivated by a desire to improve the policy but by their own personal thing, and the guardian is not interested in "consensus" (but more in keeping the status quo, which is what they actually mean by it) but is willing to use it as their stick to batter the change out of existence. Neither is in the wrong; most times, neither is right either. Anyway, if Buddha guy wants to make changes, he's been here long enough to know that he'll piss someone like Slim off if he makes them to the policy instead of proposing them on talk, and doubtless he knows that he's likely to be reverted without discussion if he does it. Grace Note 00:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"The policy" 3-point summary

The most problematic in this is #2, which would entail that any editor may remove any material that does not cite a reputable source. This would make it perfectly acceptable under policy, perhaps even encouraged, to remove any wording on any article that does not specifically reference its source. If an editor were to actually follow the supposed policy as it is worded in that summary, they would find their edits all quickly reverted and would probably be blocked for vandalism. The logical consequence of following a policy cannot be a block. There are entire articles that don't have sources, this policy cannot mean that it would be acceptable to blank them. For less drastic situations, this is at odds with the general way in which many articles are developed on a wiki; sometimes sources are not provided for information that is nevertheless obvious or could be referenced by anyone else. Yet, this policy would allow anyone to remove information. There is not a single article on Wikipedia that does not have parts unreferenced. There is not a single addition that does not have at least a minor unreferenced part. As far as I can tell this was part of what was under the guise of a "rewrite" with only 10 days from creation to implementation in January, and it was added despite significant concerns that were expressed on this very matter, Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Jguk's version. Requiring reputable sources is guideline material, not non-negotiable policy material. —Centrx→talk • 00:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you point us to where this has been a problem? -- Donald Albury 00:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It is a problem in that it is listed as policy; I did some random articles and K. D. Singh Babu Stadium, Francisco Sanches, Battle of Arica would all have qualified for being blanked if someone had followed this policy. Insofar as we do not see major text removals all the time, it is because people aren't following the advice of this policy. Or, take for example several recent featured articles, Talbot Tagora and Sequence alignment being exceptional candidates for large-scale blanking under the policy as it is currently written. —Centrx→talk • 01:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, that is not how it works. I do immediately remove edits that are particularly outrageous or that violate WP:LIVING. I hide somewhat less problematic edits, or move them to the talk page for discussion. I also mark unsourced edits with {{cn}}, and remove such edits if citations aren't supplied within a reasonable time (I've been allowing a month or more, in many cases). The system works. You are hypothesizing a problem that doesn't exist. If citation of sources has been requested, and isn't forthcoming, no one is going to be blocked for removing the unsourced edits. -- Donald Albury 02:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

As I have mentioned in our previous discussions on related matters, the number of uses of {{cn}}, {{fact}}, etc., is increasing at a rate of 150 articles/day, as was brought up by others on the talk page for Template:fact. In other words, the tags fail to achieve their stated purpose 150 additional times every day. So, no, the system does not work as you claim. At least we can rest assured that there is an upper limit; the tags should level off once 99.6% of Wikipedia is tagged or deleted, since the remaining 0.4% is actually sourced (see below). dryguy 02:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering that 2,827 new articles were added to the English Wikipedia in the last 24 hours, I would say that 150 additional articles per day with the {{fact}} is way too low. I find it hard to believe that 2,675 of the new articles are all properly sourced. -- Donald Albury 03:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not about you. The policy allows all of those new contributions that you say need {{fact}} to just be deleted. Why should the policy allow that? Note that the box does not say "If sources for a dubious statement have been requested but aren't forthcoming, then the statement may be deleted." It doesn't say that they must be commented out or moved to the talk page. It isn't restricted only to outrageous statements or statements in violation of WP:LIVING It allows for any statement to just be deleted summarily, and if someone were to enforce the policy while they were doing Recent changes patrol, for example, they would just be removing a lot of verifiable, but uncited, information, under the full authority of the text of this policy. If someone were to enforce this policy while going through a category or random articles, they would making mass blankings of text. It doesn't matter if that's not what you do, it matters that thousands of people read that box; either they follow what the box says, and may do revert after revert and blanking after blanking, or they don't follow what the box says, and the policy is just a moot fancy that someone made up, but still wrong. —Centrx→talk • 03:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Dryguy claimed above, "If an editor were to actually follow the supposed policy as it is worded in that summary, they would find their edits all quickly reverted and would probably be blocked for vandalism." I was pointing out that I do remove unsourced material and no one is complaining about what I do. Everything I do to remove unsourced material is covered in WP:V. And I do not understand what you are trying to say in the second half of your comments above. -- Donald Albury 10:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Nope. That was Centrx. dryguy 11:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You are correct. I apologize for the incorrect attribution. -- Donald Albury 12:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not referring to the number of times a day {{fact}} is added. Rather, it is the number of additional articles/day that remain tagged. For example, it could be that 151 articles were tagged and one of them was referenced, or that 250 were tagged and 100 were referenced. Either way, the tags are accumulating at a rate of approximately 150/day. Michael Z. has repeated the count more than once and reported it at Template:fact. dryguy 03:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me be clear. You stated above, "At least we can rest assured that there is an upper limit; the tags should level off once 99.6% of Wikipedia is tagged or deleted, since the remaining 0.4% is actually sourced." That will never happen. As I said, 2,827 new articles were added during the 24-hour period I checked. We can assume that is a typical day's worth of new articles. Looking at my own contributions, about 2 out of 5 new articles I create are redirects or dabs, and thus don't need sourcing. I'll round that up to 1/3 to allow for the possibility I don't create enough redirects. That would give about 1,800 new articles a day that should have sources. AfD deletes less than 100 articles per day. I don't have stats on speedy deletions, but I'll say 200 a day, for the sake of argument. I'll round that off again, to 1,500. That leaves a net increase of about 1,500 new articles a day that require sources. So, the number of articles containing the {{fact}} templates (and its synonyms) is growing at about 10% of the rate of new articles that need to be sourced. Assuming (for the sake of argument) that those trends continue unchanged for the forseeable future, then the number of articles with {{fact}} templates will converge on about 10%. The only crisis I can see in this is that so many articles are not sourced, and the number of such articles is growing by leaps and bounds every day. -- Donald Albury 10:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If an editor challenges material in an article that is not supported by a reliable source, it is the burden of the editor that added that material to provide a reference form a reliable source. I do not see what can be possibly wrong about that. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

People can and do add substantial, verifiable information to articles that would qualify for being summarily reverted under point 2 of "The policy" section, when instead sources to them could have been found. Yes, the person adding the information should have cited their sources, but the fact is that the text has been written, the information is there and is still able to be verified; the proper response to it is to cite the specific sources, and this policy should not be encouraging the removal of perfectly valid information.

It does not serve the purpose of the encyclopedia, and it is not conducive to the way wiki articles are written. We already have the Wikipedia:Reliable sources that says articles should cite reliable sources. This is the foundational policy; the foundational policy is not that all uncited information should be deleted, except in the special case potentially libelous negative information about living persons.

There is, secondarily, also the potential problem of ne'er-do-weels citing this policy as an excuse to delete all sorts of information, and with the policy as it is written now it would be perfectly valid of them to do so. See the several articles noted above. —Centrx→talk • 01:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

By following the random articles link in the navbar, I generated the following list of 10 articles: Window period, The Slackers (album), New Zealand National Airways Corporation Flight 441, Cave Hill, Saint Michael, Barbados, Chinchorro mummy, Albert Jacka, Solomon Breuer, Brighton, Michigan, PRIDE 4, MyTravel. Of the 10, only one actually cites any references, namely Solomon Breuer, and it only cites two references. Using MS Word to count the number of lines gives a total of 515 lines for all 10 articles. Most of the lines in my sample contain 1 or more statements of fact, but to keep the math easy, lets estimate 1 fact per line. So, I estimate that > 99.6% of Wikipedia's current content is not supported by reliable sources (100%-2/515*100% = 99.6%). Shall we get busy with our delete keys?

Anyone, anyone, Bueller?

No? When Nature obtained reviews of 42 Wikipedia articles to compare against Encyclopedia Britannica, only 8 major errors of fact were discovered by the reviewers (Nature, 14 Dec 2005). If that data can be applied to any random sample of 10 articles, then, on average, there will be about 2 major errors in a random group of 10. Out of 515 lines, that means about 99.6% of the content is valid. By an ironic twist of fate, that is the same estimate I got for the percentage of material that is unsourced.

I'm very glad that Wikipedia takes the reliability of articles quite seriously, but I also think that WP:V has some major flaws in the current state, as pointed out by Centrx and others before him. It is time for the editors here to start listening to complaints on a good-faith basis and stop with the knee jerk accusations that anyone who comes here has an axe to grind over some change made to their edits. dryguy 01:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, I mean WP:V the policy page. The principle of verifiability is sound. dryguy 01:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that Donald Albury uses this policy correctly and reasonably; most editors do, with most policies; but the present phrasing is in fact abused by cranks. I have seen text removed on the grounds that it says "X's paper says Y" instead of "Y[ftnote]". The actual reason for removal is usually obvious, and never admitted. Rephrasing so to give less encouragement to this sort of thing is probably a good idea. Septentrionalis 16:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Citing that a book exists?

Recently at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Philip H. Farber there was an interesting exchange. (The article itself was ultimately deleted, which is OK with me; that's not why I am bringing the issue here.) There is an exchange here between Geoffrey Spear and GBYork in which the latter seems to insist that it is necessary to cite explicitly for the existence of a book: that is, as far as I can understand, that the article should explicitly indicate a library that holds a copy. This seems a bit bizarre to me. I routinely use books as sources; I cite author, title, publishing company, date, and (if possible) ISBN. That is normal citation for a book. I would not consider it a reasonable expectation that I should then need to add another level of citation for the existence of the book. - Jmabel | Talk 03:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably this falls under WP:Reliable sources. From what I can tell from the discussion, the reliability of the source was in question, as being from a vanity press. It isn't necessary to recursively cite sources to verify the source of every source. That would be an infinite loop! dryguy 03:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The ISBN number in these cases should be requested to ascertain the existence of that book (unless the book was published pre 1970). If the editor adding the cite from that book has the book in his hands, the ISBN number is there in the title page and in the back cover. If he does not have the book, why he is citing from that book in the first place? If the editor is citing from a another cite, he needs to say so in the reference ("as cited in XXXXX"). Citing the ISBN number is great, because the wiki software will automaticaly wikilink it to the ISBN search page where you can use the tools provided to find the book in a public library, amazon.com or other on-line retailers. WP:V at its best. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

And for books without ISBN, here's a trick I once used for an ISBN-less book (see bolded part):

Toffanin, Giuseppe. Machiavelli e il "Tacitismo". La "politica storica" al tempo della Controriforma. (Padua, Draghi, 1921; re-issued Naples, Guida, 1972) The book has no ISBN, but a query for its presence in libraries worldwide can be triggered by clicking this "Karlsruher Virtueller Katalog" link

(from Tacitean studies#References) --Francis Schonken 11:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Entirely reasonable responses. One aside, though: "If he does not have the book, why he is citing from that book in the first place?" I've certainly been known to cite from notes I took, sometimes as much as decades ago. Nothing invalid about that, as far as I know. - Jmabel | Talk 15:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be OK, as we take edits in good faith. But you need to provide the ISBN or other methods so that others can verify that the cite is indeed correct. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Author and title (and date if editions have varied) should be sufficient, unless they are (very rarely) ambiguous. Septentrionalis 16:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

For what it is worth, and that is probably nothing, my entire point was that it does not matter what you "know" to be true, it is what is verified per WP:V by citations in the article that counts. The example happened to be a book, but my point was merely the importance of WP:V. If you look at people's comments, they were not using WP:V to evaluate the article. That was my only point. GBYork 18:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

---

What about papers/books which were published but are now only available in a few libraries, or original source material only available from one site? I came across the first during a discussion about a page (now deleted) about a Canadian author of a book on the Holodomor, and an example of the second can be found here Chindits#_note-7. Of the former there are many special interest groups who hold books/pamphlets on topics which although published had only a small print run, and are now only available in a few libraries world wide, (particularly if they are in a language which does not have a wide distribution). --Philip Baird Shearer 18:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Burden of evidence

This seems to push too aggressively for deletion. If 20 seconds with google brings up several good references then it doesn't seem to me that deletion should occur.

It currently reads:

"The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references. If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic."

Which seems to more or less say you can delete absolutely anything that is uncited. This seems too strong.

I'm therefore proposing adding:

"If some part of the wikipedia is uncited it is best practice to quickly check with atleast one major search engine before proceeding further, if it can be cited then it should be wherever possible.

If this fails to provide any strong supporting evidence or if the evidence is equivocal then the burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references. If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic." --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wolfkeeper (talk • contribs) 16:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I think the burden of proof always lies with the person who added the material. Further, per WP:BLP some stuff really should just be removed. Wikipedia isn't a game of gnomic, and I don't think it does argue for deletion. It might argue for the deletion process, but that's just one tool in the box for fixing articles. Hiding Talk 16:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It says very clearly: 'Any edit lacking a source may be removed' and there's a few weasel words about it being nice to be nice to other editors and asking for a cite 'if you want to' but: 'Be careful not to err too far on the side of not upsetting other editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long'. Basically, it amounts to you are encouraged to delete anything at any time unless it's cited; and you don't have to check it in any way, nor are you in any way encouraged to do so. So yeah, it does argue for deletion of all unsourced information that has been there for a few weeks.WolfKeeper 17:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Put a {{fact}} or {{verify source}} at the end of the passage, and comment on the talk page and wait a couple of days. If the text is not sourced and there is no discussion on the talk page then I think is OK to remove the text if it is incorrect or has a Non-NPOV. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. But that's not what the policy currently says you have to do, in fact according to the policy it's ok to make the article more non-NPOV if the text is correct, but uncited.WolfKeeper 19:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Above, I wrote a small essay on "What this policy does not mean." Since we seem to return to discussing the minority of editors who use Verification as a sort of gamesmanship, and the fear that the policy as phrased gives cover to unreasonable behavior, perhaps my essay could be used as a starting text for a few words of reassurance and caution.

What this policy does not mean

This policy does not mandate that every trivial statement be footnoted. There are many styles of citation, and for some articles (particularly shorter ones) a simple bibliography may suffice. So long as a reasonably-diligent reader can identify and check a source of all significant statements without undue effort, the requirement of this policy is satisfied.

This policy does not mandate that articles be deleted, unless there is reason to believe consensus that no reliable, third-party sources can be found for the topic, in which case the article does not belong in Wikipedia. Articles that do not conform to Wikipedia policies should be fixed, if possible, rather than deleted.

This policy is not a stick to be used selectively in content wars. Every editor is responsible for policing his or her own conduct, as well as for checking that of others. Helping an editor with opposing views to identify a source he cannot find is consistent with both NPOV and this policy. Deleting an unsourced statement by an opposing editor when one is reasonably certain that a source exists is not consistent with NPOV and is an abuse of this policy.

I think this expresses consensus.Robert A.West (Talk) 22:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. So why does the policy not say that? That is the hole in your reasoning. If that's the consensus, then the policy should state the consensus. It does not do so. Comments on the talk page are not policy.WolfKeeper 23:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The distinction between tagging an unsourced statement and deleting it should be whether the editor thinks that a source is likely to be found. If a group of editors agree that a statement can be sourced, but have no source, the proper action is to find a source promptly. It usually is a matter of secondary importance whether the assertion remains in the article during the search.

FWIW. Robert A.West (Talk) 22:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Robert, you have hit the nail on the head. (applause) dryguy 23:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure if I follow your logic. unless there is reason to believe that no reliable, third-party sources can be found for the topic(?) How we go about assessing that, unless a source is found? Shall we start editing on gut feeling? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No, we do what we always do, and what fundamentally we must do: use judgment. Take the article on quid pro quo. I found the article lacking sources and with problems of accuracy, clarity and diction. On the other hand, I know that there is such a concept in law, and that it has specific meaning. I tried improving the content, but haven't had time to find decent citations. When I do, I may need to correct the article further. Should I have put the article up on AFD instead? If you put it up on AFD, do I have to drop my real life to find the sources before the debate ends or see it deleted? This is a common type of case, and in practice we do exactly what I said: make a judgment on whether sources are likely to exist.

On the other hand, I simply deleted the reference in Hades (disambiguation) to a planet named Hades and am proposing the redirect for deletion, because I know there is no such thing, and judged that no reliable, third-party sources will ever be found. Should I really have to tag this nonsense first? This sort of thing is normal and proper. Robert A.West (Talk) 22:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that this applies whe you are challenged on a specific edit. There are thousands of articles in WP without any source, and we do not delete these, are we? But if an editor comes and request sources, and these are not forthcoming, then deleting the offending material is normal and proper as well, as per this policy. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Jossi. There are certain times when an expert can confidently delete something knowing it is so wrong it could never be justified. But most of the time, editors passing by an unsourced claim either add a source they themselves know, or ask if anyone can provide one. This works pretty well and it doesn´t need to be in the policy. The burden of proof is on the person adding the claim but that never means someone else cannot put in a source if they know it, nor does it mean that we don´t give the contributor a chance to add the source. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree this should be obvious, but people keep coming here and claiming that this policy mandates things it doesn't mandate. Maybe it isn't so obvious and should be stated. As for deleting articles because there is consensus they never can be verified, that happens on AFD all the time. Robert A.West (Talk) 23:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It didn't mandate, it permitted and encouraged the removal of any unsourced information whatsoever. No respectable editor followed it, but that only means a problem with the text of the policy. I have made a minor change that I think improves it significantly and reflects the comments here. —Centrx→talk • 23:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we are in agreement. The issue is that some people prefer to go by the rules, rather than to develop an understanding about the reasons for these rules. Human nature? Rules and policies without common sense and the applicaton of good judgement, do not work, IMO. The result of "no understanding" is more rules and regulations. That is why we should be cautious of instruction creep, and keep our content policies as tight and as simple as possible. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Not only do they come here claiming the policy mandates things it doesn't, they do so when discussing edits in article space. There seem to be a number of editors who believe that WP:V says things that sound close to what is actually said, but with little tweaks that have severe consequences. For example, it seems to be a common misconception that WP:V says all facts must be sourced, period. 2 + 2 = 4? No way mister; source it. Another one is that any unsourced information should be removed. Another set of misconceptions is that WP:V mandates that {{fact}} should be applied to any statement any editor feels is POV, is dubious, or to trivial statements that are unsourced. At Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources I have posted a couple of lists of articles that have been bombed with tens of {{fact}} tags on each paragraph. dryguy 00:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that this is a verifiability policy not a citation policy. That implies that everything is verifiable, not that it is cited.

The removal part says:

Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but some editors may object if you remove material without giving people a chance to provide references.

So perhaps we should write it as:

Any edit that cannot be easily verified may be removed, but some editors may object if you remove material without giving people a chance to provide references.

That implies that you should atleast make a half-hearted attempt to check the facts before removing it, whilst the previous paragraph makes it totally clear that the primary burden of proof lies with the originators of any statement.

Do we have consensus?WolfKeeper 17:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• Okay, I can see what you're driving at. However, if we are tweaking the sentence, could we perhaps amend the second half to:
• Any edit that cannot be easily verified may be removed, although it can be considered discourteous to remove text without first giving people a chance to provide references.

I don't have any objections.WolfKeeper 19:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• The phrase "some editors may object" always felt a little judgemental. Another sug

gestion for consideration would be:

• Any edit not obviously verifiable may be disputed, although it can be considered discourteous to remove text without first giving people a chance to provide references. Hiding Talk 18:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

That seems to imply that everything in the wikipedia has to be obvious, but not everything can be.WolfKeeper 19:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

<unread edit conflict with above>No, it doesn't suggest everything has to be obvious,

Well yes, what happens if it's not obvious, but turns out to be easy to verify; like you type it into google and it unexpectedly appears at the top? What does obvious really have to do with it? 'Easily' is defensible, you can always challenge somebody to ask how they checked to see how easily it was to find, and they can go 'I typed x-y-z' into google, and it didn't appear, so atleast it's checkable; whereas obviousness can vary from person to person and people can feign how obvious it was.WolfKeeper 22:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the same thing applies to easily verifiable, but this argument feels like it's turning into an argument for the sake of it. Hiding Talk 19:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

it says you shouldn't dispute anything obvious.

Something can be obvious and still wrong. Urban legends abound. I really feel you are just muddying the waters with this. Obviously verifiable stuff that cannot be easily verified should be removed!WolfKeeper 22:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I kind of feel your change is muddying the water. Something can be easily verifiable and still be wrong. I'm not sure I can see your reading of obviously verifiable as equating to an urban legend, which would still be easily verifiable. This feels like a semantical argument. Hiding Talk 19:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Also note this page is about verifiability, not about verification. We don't require that things actually be verified, but if people can't verify the information then they have the right to dispute the text. The policy in a nutshell is clear on this: "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed." I'm not sure what you mean by things changing sometimes. Hiding Talk 19:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• Um, you seem to have edited one of your messages so that this bit doesn't appear to address anything. Hiding Talk 19:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It's all subjective

I guess the reason I'm against this is that ultimately, it's all subjective, and trying to cover such subjectivity is very hard. The nuts and bolts of the issue should always be that an editor is within their rights to remove any edit they feel contentious. Such removals shouldn't be seen as deletions, and should be seen as good faith actions. Yes, there are ways and means to go about requesting a source, but at the end of the day we're here to build an encyclopedia, and I don't think we should get too hung up on describing processes in the hope of discouraging subjective decisions. The argument isn't about whether someone is right to remove information, it's about whether that information is verifiable. Asking for people to search google shouldn't be a requirement, because, given the amount of mirrors Wikipedia now has, it's going to be hard for newcomers to work out what counts as easily verifiable, and it's going to allow a degree of wiki-lawyering. Let's not bite newcomers and let's keep it simple. The guidance reads fine to me as is, and doesn't advocate deletion. Nothing on Wikipedia is ever permanently deleted. What it advocates is that people be aware that the information they add is open to challenge, and the ultimate challenge is the removal of that information. Hiding Talk 22:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Self-published and dubious reliability

This doesn't make sense: "Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as:"

It takes for granted that a self-published source is going to be dubious reliability, but that's not always the case. If a guy comes up with a theory and then self-publishes a book explaining his theory, how could that book possibly be a source of dubious reliability when used to explain the theory? That would be a very reliable source. I think that sentence needs some modification. JoeMystical 23:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If such theory is not of dubious reliability, then surely there will be secondary sources that describe such theory. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether the theory is of dubious reliability or not doesn't matter. It's still the guy's theory. It could be a total crackpot theory that no one else takes seriously or has written about. But the self-published source would not be of dubious reliability at all. JoeMystical 23:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you are confusing two questions:

1. What is the description of the Crackpot Theory?
2. Is the Crackpot Theory true?

The theorists's own website may be a reliable source for #1, but it is not for #2. If no other source even discusses the theory, then the Crackpot Theory is not worth a mention. Verifiability is a good proxy for importance. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course you're correct on your first point, but I can't agree with the second. An author can sell a lot of books describing his theory. Just because no other writers are discussing that theory, that doesn't mean it's not worth a mention. And it certainly doesn't mean it's source of "dubious reliability." The part of the sentence that says "and other published sources of dubious reliability" should be taken out. It adds nothing to the sentence, and as you acknowledged, it may be a reliable source for #1. JoeMystical 02:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC) There should also be a sentence that says: "Any self-published material may be used as a source for what is in that material, in an specific article about that author's material." Don't you agree? JoeMystical 02:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It is actually easier: The theory can be described and supported by self-published sources in the article about the author, but not in a generic article in which such theories are described. That, of course, only if the author is notable enough to warrant an article in WP. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

We obviously differ on what is easy. I see the issue as being less which article than for what purpose. I would oppose using a blog to "prove" that the author is right and his enemies wrong even in an article about the author himself. On the other hand, if an expert used a blog to repudiate his former belief in a theory (to use the canonical example), it would be wooden to ignore that fact in the article on the theory if that expert's support for the theory was a major factor in evaluating it. The blog is reliable as a description of the expert's opinion. It is not reliable as an evaluation of others' actions. Easy. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I added this and think it takes care of what was lacking there: "Self-published materials are, of course, reliable sources of information about what the ideas and opinions of those self-publishers are, and may be used in an article dedicated specifically to those authors or their ideas. This is acceptable on the condition that the sources are used merely to describe the self-publishers' ideas and opinions, rather than to assert them as being true or valid." JoeMystical 20:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a good edit to me. I see it has been removed, but I'd support putting it back in. JulesH 12:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Centrx's edit

I've reverted because, contrary to his statement that it seems this is what everyone's understanding of the policy is, it isn't mine, and I suspect it isn't the understanding of many other editors. -- Donald Albury 00:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not my impression of the above discussion under Burden of Evidence. dryguy 00:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I won't edit war over it. I do not see an explicit agreement to change the wording of the policy. Today's paricipants in this discussion are not sufficient in numbers to form a consensus to change something so fundamental and longstanding as this policy. -- Donald Albury 00:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Removing all uncited text is not fundamental to the policy; it is fundamentally wrong. The change was a relaxation of one word that corrects that wrong and brings it in line with common practice. It is not a change in the principle or the policy as it is understood by most all editors on Wikipedia. If you don't actually disagree with it and so aren't going to explain why the old version was better, it might as well be kept until someone actually objects to the change. The old version does more harm. —Centrx→talk • 00:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

How does this policy not permit any uncited material to be summarily deleted by any editor? Your counter-argument for that was a description of your own practice when dealing with uncited material, a practice that consisted of challenging uncited claims except when they were outrageous, unlikely, etc. —Centrx→talk • 00:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To Donald Albury: Then what is sufficient? This is a serious question; some aspects of this page were added by individual editors, and are known to be consensus because they have not been removed. To take an extreme position, if this page were to permanently protected for six months, at the end of that time there would be very little reason to believe any particular word to be consensus, because it would have been removed from the wiki process. Septentrionalis 02:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree if someone removes a good faith edit made to this page, they should paste onto this talk page and refute it. Then other people can weigh in and we can see where opinion stands on restoring it or not. To just remove it and state you do not agree with the edit summary is not acceptable. This is not the first time this type of problem has occured here, and it needs to stop. The wording of this policy is open to improvement. If anyone contests that an edit is an improvement they must be willing to debate what the issue with the particular edit is.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 19:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Centrx, any unsourced edit may be removed, not just challenged; obviously any edit can be challenged, so there's not much point in saying so. However, just because any edit may be removed doesn't mean we're encouraging it. As with all the policies, we rely on users exercising common sense. Anyone who went around removing material willy nilly would be blocked for vandalism or disruption. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Trolling

How do you handle a troll that demands that every sentence in an article be sourced? If every fact has to linked to a source, wont the article have every sentence followed by a citation? Wont that be required of every sentence in every article in Wikipedia? Is that the ultimate goal? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If you feel that calls for sources in an article have become disruptve, follow the steps in Wikipedia:Resolving disputes. Note, however, that consensus on an article cannot over-ride policies. And, yes, I hold that every statement in Wikipedia needs to have a source. Depending on circumstances, however, one source citation may be sufficient for a sentence, a paragraph, or a section. No statement in Wikipedia is immune from being challenged as unsourced, however. -- Donald Albury 01:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

So a troll can delete that "Trenton is the capital of New Jersey" because the policy reads "Any edit lacking a source may be removed". Am I reading that correctly? A troll can go and delete anything that doesn't have a direct reference adjacent to it and be justified. Doesn't it make more sense that if the someone can find contadictory evidence it must be removed? Lets say they find an article that says "Princeton is the capital of New Jersey" Does every birth and deathdate in a biography need to be sourced? Does the persons middle name have to be sourced? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 01:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Richard, it's hard to judge without an example, because it boils down to common sense and editorial judgment. In general, citations are preferred, though not when it reaches WP:POINT. For example, one editor, who was trolling, once asked me for a citation for the specific sentence that Auschwitz was a death camp, when there were already dozens of sources in the article testifying to that. When it reaches that level, it's disruptive editing and you should ask an admin for help or pursue dispute resolution. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I have reached that point at Pillar of Fire Church. It seems that the person is just trying to get the article deleted, or demanding that I blank it. They cite these rules, now they are complaining that the article is too long. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 02:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

That article looks fine to me. You shouldn't have to put a source next to each statement, although it may help in some cases if you do, particularly for contentious statements. But everything on the page should be covered by one of the sources. You shouldn't have to repeat the source multiple times, though, except to clarify what the sources for different positions are if there is contention.

As to the length of the article, it looks fine to me. I'd possibly remove a few of the less important items from the timeline section and the periodical coverage section so that it each fits on a single screen comfortably. But the point here is that this is a matter of preference, so should be down to editors on the page to reach consensus. If consensus can't be reached, mediation would likely be the best approach. JulesH 12:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

To clarify my position, I'd suggested repeating each source only once per section. If a source is used for multiple statements in a section, I'd put it at the end of the first sentence or paragraph that it supports, then not mention it again, except for particularly contentious claims. JulesH 12:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Lack of Consensus as Grounds for Revert

This seems to be the most common reason given for reverts to good-faith edits on this page, even when there has been no discussion on which to base any judgement about the level of consensus. I think WP:V would see a greater level of acceptance among Wikipedia editors if they felt there was some chance they could contribute here without being immediately reverted with the old catchall "lack of consensus," which really isn't a supportable statement if there hasn't been any discussion. So, please, if you are going to revert a good faith edit, copy the material to the talk page, and state what the problem is with it. Don't just say "lack of consensus" unless the material has actually been discussed at some length without reaching a consensus. dryguy 02:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I think an important question is: what exactly does constitue consensus for making a change to this project page?JulesH 12:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It has reached consensus when nobody reverts your edits.WolfKeeper 18:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not talking about changing the policy itself (which I assume would require a huge amount of consensus, with weeks or months of debate publicised in all of the most prominent places possible, e.g. village pump, adminsitrator's noticeboard, possibly even community portal), but rather changes to the explanations of it, of the kind that have been discussed here and periodically added and then removed.

How many people need to agree to such a change before it becomes consensus? JulesH 12:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not a matter of counting heads. See Wikipedia:Consensus. Also note that because Wikipedia:Verifiability is a policy, consensus must be broad, the policy must remain in congruence with other policies and the founding principals of the Foundation, and the policy is ultimately subject to the authority of Jimmy Wales. -- Donald Albury 12:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

If it isn't, then what is it about? Seriously. If it's about lack of objection, there are plenty of changes which have been raised on this page, have achieved some degree of support from other editors, little or no dissent on this page, and have been made to the project page and immediately reverted due to lack of consensus.

Besides, as I said, I'm not talking about changing the policy per se (i.e. the three bold statements in the set-out box at the top of the page), but the explanation of the consequences of the policy. Largely just phrasing changes, here and there. That's what the majority of the changes that have been reverted recently seem to be about.

But the question remains, what do you mean when you say "consensus must be broad". How can we tell when it has been reached, and if we can't, how do those performing the reversion know that it hasn't. JulesH 16:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

You seem to have it backwards. If there has not been consensus reached on the talk page to make a change, then making the change is acting without consensus. If you edit the policy without prior consensus, and no one challenges the edit for a while, then a 'de facto' consensus for the change can be assumed to have developed. But if you make a change and someone challenges it, then you have to seek explicit consensus for the change. In other words, lack of discussion about a change to existing policy (which has been reached by consensus in prior discussions) means there is lack of consensus to make the change. -- Donald Albury 12:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

What defines consensus for WP:V? Unanimity? If some dissent is tolerable, how much? How much discussion (duration, # of participants, # of people persuaded) is necessary? Some people are hard to persuade about anything; pretty much any edit will ruffle some feathers. Is there a voting mechanism? What about cases when the discussion is just an argument between two people - many lurkers refrain from posting when their point of view is represented, so you have no way of measuring how many lurkers are on which side of the argument. What if someone makes an edit and it gets buried by other edits and ends up just happening to not be noticed by the people who said they object to any change? I think that's what happened with this recent edit. Is that de facto consensus? Because if it is, then I see no reason why such a litmus test couldn't be applied to other bold edits without the instant reversion for 'lack of consensus'. If all edits require pre-approval, then how can de facto consensus ever be attained? mjb 15:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Quickly reverting, citing "lack of consensus", is unproductive and promotes groupthink. The problem with the wording is that we don't know whether there's consensus or not, so we can't say there's "lack of consensus", only that "consensus has not been established". The best way to establish consensus for a change would be a discussion on the talk page. Therefore, when reverting, instead of citing a "lack of consensus", it would be friendlier to say "please try to seek consensus by posting a discussion on the talk page". This will make it easier for those who wish to make good-faith modifications to the policy. I think this policy is plagued by groupthink. When someone tries to raise an issue with the policy, they are quickly accused of being trolls with an axe to grind. I once experienced this myself when trying to raise several issues with the policy. Such an attitude promotes cabalism and is harmful to the project. *waits to be accused of trolling* --J.L.W.S. The Special One 13:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think just asking for consensus is in practice any better than just saying there is lack of consensus. My point is different. If you are reverting an edit, presumably you think there is a problem with that edit, so state what the problem is. Later, after discussion has taken place here, it will be possible to assess consensus. Removing edits just by stating "wait for consensus," is a very convenient way for someone to remove anything they disagree with. I think the bar should be slightly higher; if there hasn't been any discussion about the matter, then you ought to state what was wrong with the edit you reverted. Lack of prior discussion is not proof that the change was defective. dryguy 13:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed: if there is no dissent with the change, then consensus exists by definition. When removing an edit, show evidence of dissent, even if it is only your reasons for disagreeing with the change. That was a debate can begin. If it's just removed for "lack of consensus", there's no starting point for a debate. JulesH 16:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The long-standing provisions of this policy represent consensus that has been hammered out in many discussions. If you want to change it, you have to demonstrate that consensus across the Wikipedia community now supports the change. As this is one of the fundamental policies in Wikipedia, you cannot simply come in and change it to fit your personal preferences without broad support from the Wikipedia community. Personally, I think the proposed change weakens the policy and Wikipedia. -- Donald Albury 17:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

In a case like that it should be easy to cite the previous discussion where the consensus was reached, and you should do so to help the newcomers understand they aren't just being bullied. Also, if you say "wait for consensus" it implies that the issue hasn't been discussed. If that is the case, then there is no basis to say anything about whether the change reflected current consensus or not. dryguy 17:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Dryguy, if I understood you correctly, the issue is that some seem to think they OWN this page, and are quickly reverting any edits made there, with the simple reason of "lack of consensus"? --J.L.W.S. The Special One 04:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe many of the reverts are made in a good faith attempt to maintain the integrity of one of the three pillars of Wikipedia, but that many people who come here are not given a fair hearing. Too often it is assumed that anyone new who makes a change is simply trying to change the rules to suit their actions elsewhere on Wikipedia. I would prefer to see all changes evaluated based on the merit of the change, rather than based on how long the editor who made the change has been working on the WP:V page. That can't happen if the editor who reverts a change will not take part in a discussion about it. Too often, the "discussion" seems to begin and end with nothing more than "there is no consensus for that change" or the equivalent. In the cases where a discussion does take place, the argument against change most often put forth is that "this page represents the consensus of many editors developed over a long time," which may or may not apply to the change that was reverted. If it does apply, then the previous discussion should be cited. If there was no previous discussion then there could not have been a previous consensus about that particular change, so the dissenters ought to state their objections. dryguy 15:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for recognizing my motive in reverting the change. This is one of the three pillars of Wikipedia, and changes should not be made lightly to it. As for 'ownership', I don't think I have added a single word to this policy. It is not my 'baby'. However, I do believe that the polciy as it currently stands is important to Wikipedia. I will not edit war over it (at least, not on my own), and if someone makes the same change again I will not revert it, but I'm confident someone else will.

However, I must state that I believe that it is bad to have major policy pages displaying statements that are liking to be removed when consensus is restated. When I revert because there is no consensus for a change, it is because I believe that there is in fact no consensus for that change, and that someone else will revert if I don't. And yes, I do feel that I am protecting the policy. I know that there are other editors who also passionately protect this policy.

As for the specific statement, my position is that immediate removal of unsourced material must remain an option. Please note that the immediate removal without discussion of unsourced negative material about living persons is mandated by WP:BLP#Remove unsourced or poorly sourced negative material. In other cases, it needs to be left to the judgment of the editor as to whether immediate removal, moving to the talk page, hiding in the article text, or asking for citations is the best option for unsourced material. Requesting citations is often quite effective, especially if done very soon after the material is added, but some editors are very obstinate about not supplying references, and removal of the material has to remain as the last resort. Therefore, I am opposed to requiring that statements must be contested before they can be removed. -- Donald Albury 16:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And an example of why some material should be removed without discussion, here. It's unsourced, an attack on a living person, very POV and apparently includes OR. I reverted it under the provisions of WP:BLP. -- Donald Albury 16:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Donald, I realize I started this particular thread after you had reverted someone's edit, but please don't think my comments are directed primarily to you, nor am I trying to comment in any way on the subject matter of the change you reverted.

I don't buy your argument of reverting for no other reason than "someone will revert if I don't." If that is your only reason to revert, then let that "other person" do it and state their reasons for doing so. If I were to follow the same logic, I would have to revert every change to this page, period, because, you know, someone else will if I don't. Finally, I'm not saying all statements must be contested before they are removed, I am simply saying that "no consensus" is a flimsy excuse to revert a good-faith edit. If someone agrees with a change, why would they remove it? All I ask is that editors of WP:V give the reason why they disagree with something at the time they revert it. If an editor doesn't have a good reason, then leave it for another editor to deal with. dryguy 17:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I was replying to earlier posts as well as yours. I did not mean to attribute to you all of the things I was replying to. When I reverted saying there was no consensus, I thought it was clear that I did not concur with the edit, and was merely saying that it was a change that needed to be discussed on the talk page before adding it to the policy. Actually, I've been amazed at how much power some users seem to be attributing to me, as though I had the ability to cut off discussion by reverting a change to the policy because consensus had not be been demonstrated for that change. As for letting someone else object first, I do that a lot, and if I see someone mounting the same arguments I would use in a discussion, I often tend to hang back, waiting until the ranting and endless repetition of the same arguments dies down, voicing my support sparingly. -- Donald Albury 18:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, guys. Formally speaking, if lack of consensus is grounds for reverts, unless the reverted text reaches consensus then there is equal grounds for reverting it back again straight away. Who's to say that the version that has been there longer is the right one to revert to? It may well not be consensus since somebody just changed it. So that's a bit of a hole. At some level you need to go for a higher authority, like quoting Wales, or other policies, otherwise there's a revert war possible right there. So I claim that on its own it cannot be grounds for reversion, you need to quote another policy or Wales.WolfKeeper 14:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

There is an important difference. The version that has been there for a while is there because that is the version that consensus had settled on.

No. I don't think that's right. Not in general.WolfKeeper 23:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Consensus does not evaporate overnight.

I would argue that it does, as soon as somebody makes an edit. Somebody arguing that it's not consensus is the tail wagging the dog. IMO the only time you should revert for consensus is to re-establish consensus on the talk page.WolfKeeper 23:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The consensus for the existing version is presumed to still hold until demonstrated otherwise. One editor's attempt to modify the policy does not wipe out the existing consensus, it just challenges it. In a rough analogy, the incumbent stays in office until defeated by a challenger. -- Donald Albury 22:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Where's the rule for that?WolfKeeper 23:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Wolfkeeper, please do not intersperse your comments in the middle of my post. It makes it difficult to keep straight what I said. I don't appreciate it at all. -- Donald Albury 01:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Concern

"Articles dealing with urban myths, black projects, open secrets and otherwise obscure topics are not exempt from verifiablity requirements. In general, articles of this nature should not exist here unless they are well known, culturally signifigant, or can meet the criteria for notability (examples of which include the Jersey Devil, the Aurora aircraft, and the Israeli nuclear weapons program). Articles that deal with topics of this nature general have few, if any, reliable sources, leaving them open to claims of original research or speculation, niether of which are permitted on wikipedia."

This I added because the black project template points to this page as one of the standards that must be met for an article to stay here. For this reason I am somewhat concerned that this has been removed from the article, but I am not going to force it back. Instead, I merely wish to advise those who freqent this page that they may or may not find that something to this effect must stated out in the front for those who do not find any explicit references to the above three conditions. I will leave you alone now. ;-) TomStar81 02:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

While I have no objection to this addition in principle, I'm not sure what it's intended to achieve. The page already clearly states that all articles, regardless of subject, must conform to the policy. As to notability of such articles, I'd suggest a guideline should be created and added to the list at Wikipedia:Notability. It is certainly an area where caution is required to establish the importance of any information. JulesH 07:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

• I know, but I figure its only a matter of time before some enterprising person comes up with either "This is a valid project, its just there are no sources for it" or "There was nothing on that page about this/these types of articles, so it doesn't apply". All I am trying to do is preempt such rational by stating clearly, in simple english, that those two lines are thought are not excuses/reasons for doging policy. I will take a look at adding something similar over on Notability later today. Thanks for the suggestion! TomStar81 09:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You might do better to add more in-depth reminders about wiki policy in the appropriate articles' talk pages as well as at the top of the articles themselves, commented out so that only editors can see it.WolfKeeper 14:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

A talk page template of a nature similar to the one used for living-person bios might be a good idea, just to remind editors of the requirements of verifiability. JulesH 19:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Objection to "Challenged"?

Where is it? What is the reason why "removed" is better? —