Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 20

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Talk archives for Wikipedia:Verifiability (current talk page)
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Contents

Verifiable information

I am being told by an admin, User:Jossi, that he can re-introduce challenged facts without providing a citation as long as the facts are "verifiable", as in can be verified. I moved the info to the talk page at Talk:List_of_Romanian_actors#Work_log for others to find citations for them. But he insists on keeping the uncited information in the article itself saying "Moving it to talk, simply removes any possibility from the occasional editor to come and add a source". My opinion is that moving it to talk prevents readers from reading potentially false information.

he says to me "You are misinterpreting WP:V". Is this true? Why doesn't the policy say this? Where have I gone wrong in interpreting this policy? Are uncited facts really allowed to stay even after being challenged because they are "verifiable"? I want to follow the rules here, but what are the rules? Until(1 == 2) 04:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

First, I am not a she, I am a he. I have invited you to contribute to the project by finding sources rather than deleting material because there are no sources. It took me less than 20 minutes to find sources for the most of the entries in List of Romanian actors that you deleted. We are here to build an encyclopedia, and we do that by collaborating: one editor adds material, another editor adds more, and another finds a source. If the material is not sourced, you can add a {{fact}} tag, and wait. If no source is forthcoming, you may delete, if you wish, or better do some basic research if you are inclined and find a source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

First, I didn't delete anything, I moved it to the talk page where things that need to meet inclusion standards belong. Secondly I found the first 19 references so don't imply that I never did any research. Third, removing unsourced information is an important contribution that stops Wikipedia from turning into a gossip mill. I would appreciate it if you did not diminish my contributions. And finally, {{fact}} tags are not a requirement before removing unsourced data. I gave plenty of notice on the talk page before during and after. Everything I removed I re-posted on the talk page to be addressed. I am not just tossing stuff out. But now we are just repeating ourselves, I am interested in others opinions on this matter. Until(1 == 2) 04:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

You say "I am interested in others opinions on this matter." My opinion is that User:Jossi is 100% right on this. Read all his comments in this thread (section). WAS 4.250 12:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
How typical, established editors 100% supporting each other against new ones. Of couse Jossi's wrong. The burden of evidence is always on those who want to keep the claim, and the first pragraph of this policy page says it literally: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material.". "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page." In other words, moving to talk is the natural reaction to complaints like Jossi's, but he can't demand anything else. The use of the citation needed tag instead is recommended, but not obligatory - it's up to the challenging editor to decide whether the risk of disinforming readers is too high. Jossi has no right to re-add anything.--Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
On the contrary. I do appreciate your contributions. Moving content to talk is deleting content. The application of policy needs to be done in context. An unsourced controversial claim in a biography of a living person can be deleted on sight, for example. For non-contentious material such as a list of actors, we give some more leeway. If an entry is not sourced, hopefully someone will add it at a later point. Wikipedia articles are work in progress and there are tens of thousands articles without sources. You may want to join one of the Wikipedia projects to help with finding and adding sources to such articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
You may want to read WP:CITE#Dealing_with_citation_problems where this is explained. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The key here is whether the information is harmful to the article (as outlined in WP:CITE)... since listing someone as a Rumanian Actor is hardly harmful (to the article or the person), the correct approach is to add a citation request (a {{fact}} tag) and leave it in the article. If, after a reasonable period (I would suggest at least a month), a citation has not been provided, then you can delete it or move it to talk. Blueboar 11:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Of course any wrong information is harmful to the article. But the fun thing is that we now have three established editors supporting each other against all reason and policy. It's getting cooler and cooler. --Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
If I as a reader(remember the reader?) look up Romanian actors, and add some to my report that are not Romanian actors because WP put uncited information back in(after another editor challenged it veracity), that is harmful. Unreliable information is a detriment to an article. This is basic academic responsibility, show your work. Until(1 == 2) 13:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced data

Sourcing is new to wikipedia. Articles written for wikipedia in the early years were typically not sourced. There remain many thousands of excellent article in wikipedia from those years that remain to be properly sourced. Do not delete any data from wikipedia that you believe to be both true and not harmful regardless of whether or not it is sourced. Sourcing is an improvement and only a requrement if someone honestly believes it is either false or harmful (per WP:BLP or WP:LIBEL for example). The reqirement is that it is capable of being sourced. It only fails this requirement if people actually look online and in libraries for a source and can't find one. It does not fail this requirement just because a question on a talk page goes unanswered. WAS 4.250 12:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

All I can do is follow policy. I think any incorrect information is harmful to the article. I would appreciate it if this vague advice I am being given is explained in more clear terms in policy. Because it seems that there is a set of rules, but when I follow them I am told there is another unwritten set of rules. Perhaps an addition to the policy would clear this up. I for one am confused. I have no reason to believe that the entries on the list really are actors, really are Romanian, and really have a significants that justifies an entry in an encyclopedia. How can I know this if all this is true without a citation? How do I know we are not just passing on false data that some guy added one day after school? Why does it say I can challenge uncited facts I am unsure about when it seems I get in trouble when I do? I am not trashing the place, I am citing what I can and moving what is not to the talk page. The article is for the readers, the talk page is for the editors. I don't see why editors should keep notes about "what might be citable" in the article space. It is very hard on new users when the policy says one thing and the mob says another. Until(1 == 2) 13:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
What you folks are all telling me, is it in a policy that I have not read? That would explain a lot. For example, where is it written in policy "The reqirement is that it is capable of being sourced(sic)"? Until(1 == 2) 14:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
To be fair to both sides, I am not aware of this shift-to-talk being a current policy or practice. However, thinking about it, it seems that it could be sensible anyway. If there's content that an editor honestly can't tell the truth or falsehood of, is uncited and has been marked as such for some time, I can see how it might be appropriate to do this. I have no idea if that's the situation in the cases referred to, it just strikes me that there could be cases that it applies to. SamBC 14:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability". Note that it does not say "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is an inline citation to a reliable published source." Citing is how we demonstate verifiability when a claim is challenged. Wikipedia:Verifiability then says "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. Quotations should also be attributed. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it. Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag the sentence by adding the fact template, or tag the article by adding Not verified or Unreferenced. Leave an invisible HTML comment, a note on the talk page, or an edit summary explaining what you have done. Be careful not to go too far on the side of not upsetting editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living people." Clearly, we are not supposed to go around deleting every uncited claim. Clearly, how we deal with uncited claims is a matter of editorial judgement. There is no rule to be used blindly on every uncited claim. But editorial judgements will vary. So when you feel that some list items should be moved to the talk page then maybe they should. When someone else disagrees then maybe they shouldn't. It is all a matter of editorial judgement. See WP:IAR for our most important rule. If it make wikipedia better then it is ok to do. WAS 4.250 14:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. The policy clearly supports Until. You are supposed to delete every uncited claim that you think needs to be deleted. The burden of evidence is on the one who restores it - i.e. the one hwo restores it without evidence is wrong. If you abandon this rule, you only have anarchy and edit warring left. Which some people like, I'm sure. --Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
That seems to support my position that once removed a citation needs to be provided before re-adding. I have just learned the policy is supposed to be "descriptive" of consensus, not "prescriptive". So it appears the problem is not with me misinterpreting policy, but the policy misrepresenting the community consensus. In order to move forward instead of just going in circles I will attempt to draft a policy change proposal to include the communities opinion on these matters. Expect it within a few hours. I am willing to follow the rules, but it needs to be made clear what the rules are. Until(1 == 2) 15:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
If your proposal succeeds, I'm leaving this project.--Anonymous44 20:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
That's not a good way to react to other editors. Wikipedia has dispute resolution processes you can use instead. Jehochman Talk 20:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I think you slightly misunderstood my statement and the context. That aside, I see no other adequate way to react. And DR has nothing to do with this. --Anonymous44 20:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out that WP:V defines "Verifiable": ""Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." It does not mean "Capable of being verified", it means it needs a citation to a reliable source that any editor can check. Until(1 == 2) 15:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed policy changes

I have come to the conclusion that the wording of the current policy is not in line with the community consensus on how WP:V should be interpreted. So I am proposing the following changes/additions:

  1. Unsourced information may be re-added despite being challenged by an editor if consensus determines that the information is capable of being sourced
  2. Before removing unsourced information it must be marked with a {{fact}} tag and a message on the talk page must be posted, a period of at least a (week/month/year?) must pass before removing the content (unsure of the duration, opinions on this matter are vague)
  3. It is the responsibility of the person removing the content to search for a citation to support the content being removed, and if one is found the content should be cited and remain (Suggestion #1 may be a better alternative to this, leaving the burden of proof on the person seeking to re-add unless consensus determines it capable of being sourced)
  4. It is not appropriate to remove significant amounts of uncited content from an article (more than half? a third?)

Please let me know you opinion on each change suggested. Until(1 == 2) 15:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

First, my opinion on these changes is that it is better as it is now. However, I would rather have a policy that the community agrees to and that can be followed without people getting angry at me. I will gladly accept consensus in this matter however my personal opinion is that these changes are misguided.

In regards to #1, pretty much all information is "capable of being sourced", I suppose consensus can determine this on a case by case basis. Re: #2 This seem reasonable if specific criteria are made available to the person doing the cleanup. Re: #3, it seems rather contrary to have people being forced to research other people's claims, but if the community agrees this is the duty of the person removing the content then I will accept this. Re: #4, this may be reasonable, but it also needs to be more clearly defined.

I am attempting to sincerely represent the opinions of the community in this matter, if you feel I have misinterpreted things please feel free to re-draft any of these additions. But what cannot continue is the policy saying one thing, then the community getting all upset with me when I follow it. Lets get the policy in line with consensus here, or there will be unnecessary conflict and interruptions to important encyclopedic editing. Until(1 == 2) 15:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I also agree that things are better as they stand now. The third point, in particular, shifts the burden of proof too greatly from the person adding material to the person questioning it. Ultimately it's not hepful if anyone is free to add dubious info, and then to clean it up someone else has to prove a negative (i.e., the material can't be sourced). We have enough trouble already with aggressive pseudoscience POV-pushers and the like without giving license to add speculative claims. Let's just leave things as they are and apply our best judgment. Raymond Arritt 15:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

This current policy does not leave it up to judgment, it clearly puts the burden on the person seeking to add the information. Perhaps you can draft a change that allows consensus to override the burden of proof? I guess point #1 can cover that, thus making point #3 redundant if consensus determines it "capable of being sourced" Until(1 == 2) 16:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I see no need to make these changes either. WAS 4.250 gave a thorough explanation on how policy is applied. Yes, we have policies (not rules), and yes we have guidelines such as WP:CITE, but editor's good judgment is also needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


See WP:ATT where this is discussed as follows:

Although everything in Wikipedia must be attributable, in practice not all material is attributed. Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material. If an article topic has no reliable sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

If you think the policy is fine as it is now, then I expect you to follow it and not return unsourced content after it has been challenged. Even when I removed 4 names that had no citations or even wikilinks you revert me[1], I know you found citations, but why did you have to criticize and revert my removal, instead of just citing them before re-adding? WAS(and just now you) described a policy where that is not allowed. Perhaps you can draft a proposed addition that settles this? Until(1 == 2) 16:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Mark it as {{fact}}, and wait a month. Your deletion of material that is harmless is not consistent with application of policy. What is the challenge? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
So wouldn't suggestion #2 be in line with that? The challenge is that there is no way of knowing if it is true, the harm is the reader getting potentially wrong information. Until(1 == 2) 16:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think "Unsourced information may be re-added despite being challenged by an editor if consensus determines that the information is capable of being sourced" (option number one above) descibes current practice and consensus for what current practice should be. Adding it to the policy page would help with cases where peope go around deleting stuff the rest of us agree should be sourced eventually and not deleted. I think we should add it to the policy page. WAS 4.250 16:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I think that is the first response that attempts to make sense of all of this. Until(1 == 2) 16:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I would also support this - I give more of a view below where my reasoning fits better. SamBC 17:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the starting point has to be there are no rules. Unfortunately, there are a wide variety of people out there who want to do things that aren't going to end up with producing a good quality article, therefore it is useful to have guidelines. Like any contract, they are best not used, and in business if you are reading the contract then things have already gone too far wrong. At the moment, there is something amiss with the spirit of editing: many of us grumpy folk here are here because we got Wiki-Lawyered and came to defend our position in the face of irreconcilable differences. I'm of a view that strengthening the rules undermines the guiding principles and things need to be clearer, but looser.

There is an interesting similarity with a problem that Formula 1 has on aerodynamic parts. The rule is 'no moving parts' however teams made bendy bits that accidentally moved in a favourable way under pressure at speed, so F1 added rules to say no bendy bits and must not bend under x amount of pressure. What they then found was that people built parts that bent to the test tolerance. So they adjusted the rules to say no bendy bits, the test is so and so, but the principle is still no bendy bits so if we think you are building bendy bits we reserve the right to change the rules to protect the spirit. I think this is a phase we are seeing the rules going through here: in seeking to sort out the guidelines, we are losing the spirit which is avoid rules where possible if it gets us to a good result. Spenny 16:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful, I think change #1 addresses these concerns. But the way it is written makes it clear who can remove and who can re-add and under what circumstances, it mentions no such exceptions, it should if that is the case. Until(1 == 2) 16:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The wording "any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged" does not cover the situation where somebody chooses to challenge otherwise uncontroversial material in order to prove a point. However, we can cover that situation ourselves by applying common sense. Tim Vickers 16:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It actually says just that. Who says it is uncontroversial? If it is uncontroversial then what are we arguing about? It says "any material that is challenged" not "any material that common sense determines challengeable". When people disagree that is not common sense, common sense is sense that is common. If the sense was common there would be no problem, we could all just agree. I think you mean "consensus" which is exactly what I am trying to allow for in suggestion #1. Also, again, I am not trying to prove a point, I am trying to figure out the dam rules so I can follow them and cleanup Wikipedia. Please stop accusing me of bad faith, I am doing all I can to work with the community on this. I don't deserve accusations of bad faith and I am pretty sure it is against policy(unless I am misinterpreting WP:AGF). Until(1 == 2) 17:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
ISTR reading something about "there's no such thing as common sense" - people are coming here from all sort of social, professional, cultural and ethnic backgrounds. If something clearly isn't common sense, because some people can't seem it that obviously, the fact that it is seen as 'obvious' should be codified (without being as patronising as I made it sound). SamBC 17:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree, I think you have found the crux of the whole issue. Until(1 == 2) 17:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

This is not needed. With all due respect to Until(1 == 2), this entire proposal seems unproductive and unhelpful (See e.g., WP:BURO WP:CREEP, as well as other reasons already mentioned above). The fact that it appears to have been motivated by a specific (and apparently still-pending) content dispute suggests Wikipedia:Taking it outside would have been more appropriate.

There are many mature WP contributors who are quite capable and very familiar with what does and does not contribute to article improvement. Spoon-feeding them with step-by-step edicts and rote formulaic recipes is not going to help. The experienced contributors already know these steps and apply them as appropriate; because they work, not because they are legislated from on-high.

What's worse, less mature contributors are not even going to bother with these recipes, except when they can be used against someone else. What's even worse, is that you appear to be saying nothing more than: "cites count, but so does consensus" ... Wikipedia:Consensus (et. al.) already cover that.

If you really feel strongly about your viewpoint, create an essay (Category:Wikipedia essays) just like everyone else who has a personal viewpoint to share and promote. If it gains traction there will be enough "consensus" to elevate it to policy status anyway. Changes to policy should not be considered the first choice for resolving recent or pending content disputes. dr.ef.tymac 17:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

But what I am being told the rules are does not reflect in the policy. I am just trying to figure out the rules here. This is not about a specific content dispute, it is about what I do next. I need to know the rules. If what I am being told is not really what the rules are, then I need to know that. I came here to clarify policy, and my suggested changes are directly based on what I was told on this very page #Verifiable_information. These are not my opinions, but the opinions of the community that are being applied to me. What I would really like is the policy to be enforced as it is now, which it is not. Until(1 == 2) 17:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I am glad that you want to "follow the rules", but what you need is an understanding of the principles upon which these "rules" have been drafted. As a new editor, it is best if you look around and see how things work, before making suggestions on how to improve upon existing "rules". It is not that hard or complicated as it seems. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
What you've been told is the viewpoint of the contributor you were talking with, there are other views as well. The fact still remains that this discussion is inextricably mingled with the dispute that started it, and arguably beyond the scope of this discussion page. I'm fully confident in your good-faith motivation, but clearly Category:Wikipedia essays, Wikipedia:Taking it outside, Wikipedia:Consensus, and WP:BRD are relevant here, and should be reviewed, *especially* if you want your proposal(s) to merit serious consideration. dr.ef.tymac 17:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
False dilemma. Your approach is too literalist. We cannot take bits and pieces of any relevant policy in isolation. As others have mentioned, verifiability, consensus and other relevant policies and guidelines work in concert. It's also hard to imagine many editors not exercising common sense even if the policy doesn't spell it out (although it's being proposed.) And Unit, don't take this the wrong way; I don't think anyone has accused you of bad faith as far as I can see, but some of your objections honestly seem a bit... point-ish. Also, you really should use the preview button a lot more often. This [2] has been making it difficult to follow all the discussions, not to mention the countless edit conflicts it is creating. — Zerida 17:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is not a consensus for the rules I am being asked to follow. I am trying to understand what you want, I spelled out what I thought you wanted, then you would not agree to it. What do you want me to do? What does what you want me to do differ from the points I suggested above? HELP ME. Until(1 == 2) 17:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here is an idea, help me make a guideline/essay that explains what is expected of me, leave the policy as it is. I don't want to change things, I just want to know what you want. Until(1 == 2) 17:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is a start: User:Until(1 == 2)/Removal of uncited content, feel free to move it to WP namespace if you think it is appropriate. Not tying to disrupt, just trying to continue properly. Until(1 == 2) 18:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This may be the core of the issue, Until: I don't want to change things, I just want to know what you want. There is no "what you want", there is "what we want". This is a community of peers. You can embody the "we" by not only following rules to the letter, but by gaining an understanding. I am sure that you have learned quite a bit from the last exchanges, and so have I. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I am trying to gain understanding. I have started by putting questions on the essay talk page User talk:Until(1 == 2)/Removal of uncited content. While these things may be vague and unwritten now, there is no reason why a consensus driven essay cannot be formed to make it more clear to new users. I hope you realize the absurdity of asking me to follow rules then not letting me know what they are. Until(1 == 2) 18:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This may help: Wikipedia:The_role_of_policies_in_collaborative_anarchy ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how that helps me follow rules that apparently cannot be put into words and agreed on. Until(1 == 2) 18:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
(ed conf) We are here not to follow rules, but to create an encyclopedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I would just love to do that, but I need to know how to avoid being interrupted. Until(1 == 2) 18:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not convinced these rules need to be written. The first is obvious from the fact that while this page says information may be challenged & removed if it isn't sourced, it doesn't say it must always be sourced. The second is a fairly obvious corollary of WP:CIVIL -- people get upset if content they're working on is arbitrarily deleted without warning, and we should strive not to upset other editors. The third is merely a good suggestion but I wouldn't want it anywhere near policy, because it would stop us from dealing with content that we knew was wrong efficiently. The fourth I don't think is even a good idea. If an unreferenced tag or large numbers of fact tags have been on an article for a long time, or if it is negative BLP, then it always appropriate to remove uncited information, however much of it there is. Even if there is consensus for any of these, it's more of a guideline issue than a policy one, so here isn't the right place for it. JulesH 18:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Every time I get advice it is a little different. Until(1 == 2) 18:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

So, here's the thing... I don't agree with Until's method of conducting this debate - I can assume enough good faith to assume that he didn't create a straw man deliberately, but that's what the original proposal seems to be. However, I do think that there's a genuine concern here: there are ways that I have seen that popular practice (and, by implication, consensus) deviates from the policy/guidelines that I've seen, at least within sub-groups and topic areas. New users do read policy and guidelines and try to apply them, in good faith, and it is frustrating when it turns out that what the handy documents tell us, or seem to tell us, isn't what people expect, and they in fact get quite annoyed. I think what's happening here is that a user has sought clarification, and then suggested that that clarification ought to be in the documents new users tend to read. SamBC 18:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I am going away for a little while, I hope that some clarification grows on the essay I started, I put some draft ideas on the talk page. Until(1 == 2) 18:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought I kind of liked this project, but that was because I had read its rules. Now I see that, in a blatant case such as this, pretty much every experienced contributor around here takes a side against these rules, or at least shamelessly reproaches those who advocate them, or at best pretends to ignore the nature of the conflict altogether. Obviously, what seemed good in the rules was mostly the result of an accident, and so was my liking it. The rules were an illusion, and the reality is the behaviour that I see here.--Anonymous44 20:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem can be illustrated by clicking on "random article" a few times. I just did and got Jan z Tarnowa. It has no external links or references or tags warning of lack of references. It was created in 2005 before the current push for sources. Wikipedia is not helped by deleting that article, unless someone does a good check and finds no sources. On the other hand if someone just now added it, it would be ok to demand sources as the burden lies on them. Perhaps we need to say that this policy is different regarding older articles. Grandfathered in? WAS 4.250 20:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Nobody ever said that everything without a source must be deleted. According to the policy, anything without a source may be deleted; i.e. an editor is allowed to delete it if he thinks that it should be deleted (because it is or appears likely to be incorrect). The assumption is that editors wouldn't lie and delete for pleasure. If an editor thinks he has reason to believe that a sentence in Jan z Tarnowa is incorrect, then the sentence should stay out of the page until sourced. As for the deletion of entire articles, that is a special area, covered by other pages. --Anonymous44 21:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
i.e. an editor is allowed to delete it if he thinks that it should be deleted. Not really. That deletion can be challenged as well, in particular if the deleted text is not controversial, or if the material is easily verifiable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
No, it can't be challenged. The policy doesn't say that. What do you think "burden of evidence" means? If the material is easily verifiable, the editor who includes it should verify it (source it). If it were uncontroversial, it would never have been deleted in the first place per definition.--Anonymous44 23:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, we adapt this to the situation. A critical fact on which notability depends must be sourced;a fact that is important to the subject and really controversial must be sourced--if one person claims someone is Ukrainian and another Russian and it matters to the article then it must be resolved by dispute resolution if necessary; if it does not matter to the article the statement of nationality can be removed altogether until someone finds a source; if there is a poor quality source--which will in practice often be the case whatever it supports stands until someone finds a better.
The way to get articles sourced otherwise is to keep reminding people, and to have efforts looking for sources of a particular type in likely places--it would make sense for a group of editors to systematically use, say, an Italian biographic encyclopedia to verify unsourced articles about Italians. Asking for the verification of scattered articles is much less effective. Excessive pushing for sources where they are not critical will have one of two results: the removal of potentially good articles, or the provision of low quality sources.
This said, the continual improvement of sources will be a major theme in this or any similar project. DGG (talk) 23:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
(ec) How likely is it that a List of Romanian actors be "incorrect" (as opposed to lacking references)? It's a list after all. Notice that the dispute which precipitated the editorial conflict on the policy page was mostly in regard to academic/scientific/medical topics, where the potential to mislead can have different consequences; hence no contradiction as Anonymous44 maintains. I don't see, however, how this situation calls for changes to policy as suggested by Until. In fact, I would say that only those things which clearly do not satisfy WP:V, WP:N, WP:BLP, WP:NOR and simple vandalism that should be summarily deleted. A clearly valid article lacking sources can be remedied. The rest, such as NPOV disputes, can be worked out through discussion and consensus. I think this is a more constructive approach to building an encyclopedia, as Jossi has pointed out. Furthermore, for the list of Romanian actors, it was hardly necessary to cite every single actor who already has an article on Wikipedia. The references should have probably gone into the individual articles where they are actually needed. The topic of Romanian cinema itself may be difficult to source by many English-language references, but this is not justification for deletion by itself. This is, however, more about the content dispute than the policy, which should have been worked out on the relevant talk pages. — Zerida 23:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I never said anything about a contradiction between the "academic" dispute and this one. You are pointing to the concrete case, which I admit is kinda weird, but we are being asked about general principles here, and that's what I've been talking about. The claim that a Romanian actor exists and is an actor can indeed be "correct" or "incorrect", and it should be easy to be sourced (though probably in Romanian); on the other hand, an editor is not expected to demand such a source just for the principle's sake, without any reason to doubt it (a misperception that Until obviously had at some point). But if he does demand a source, it should be provided. Otherwise, anybody could claim that anything is "uncontroversial", "obvious", "true", "easy to source" and hence needs no sourcing, and edit warring decides the outcome, turning Wikipedia into a complete anarchy. --Anonymous44 23:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
btw, after this "dispute" started, the result is a list in which all entries are now sourced, besides just a couple. Which demonstrates that it is always better to source, than to delete. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
also note that lists are in the mainspace, and as such they need sources as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

WAS 4.250's example, the article on Jan z Tarnowa is a good case study. WAS found it using random article, and found that no sources were included. Great. How long it takes to find a reference? I found hundreds of sources on the first five minutes, unfortunately the sources are all in Polish. If I am interested in building an encyclopedia, I would contact a Wikipedian that speaks the language (Category:User_pl) and ask for assistance. If I am interested in following the rules, I would mark as {{unreferenced}} and come back two weeks later to delete the material and ask for a speedy deletion. That is the difference between applying the rules for rule's sake, and building an encyclopedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... no, I don't think unsourced articles should be blanked and speedily deleted merely and solely on the basis of the fact that they are unsourced (as I just noticed that Until had apparently advocated or even done something like that before the current discussion; I guess that could be part of the reason for some of the people's reactions). WP:DP specifically deals with the issues, and it does not mention lack of references in itself as a sufficient reason for deletion. It also explicitly says that serious attempts must be made to find sources before deletion is considered. However, removing unsourced claims is fully acceptable, and the only alternative to that principle is the Law of the Jungle, where in conflicts between arbitrary "editorial judgments" about what "might potentially be sourced, if one tried", the strongest (least busy, most stubborn) editor or the strongest (most numerous) faction wins. --Anonymous44 23:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Law of the Jungle? That is not my experience. If that is your experience, you may have missed the dispute resolution process we have in place. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
You can't - and don't - have a DR for each sentence that some like and others dislike. Edit warring and the potential for it are often decisive; policies are supposed to amend that. BTW, being one of the "least busy, most stubborn" ones is a requirement for affording a DR at all. --Anonymous44 23:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
There are many ways to engage third parties, such as WP:3O, and WP:RFC, and if that is too much work or if to ask for help requires "being stubborn", so be it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh my. It sounds as if you have never been engaged in a serious edit conflict - which is, of course, not the case. DR can be part of the fun, but it is certainly not the end of the fun. But in any case, my point was that the policy has to specify some general rules. Appealing to one or several persons is not an alternative to the policy; rather, the only reason why it could help is because these persons want to observe the policy. Otherwise, it is just another form of the same conflict - e.g. in ex-Yugoslavian issues, the virtual Yugoslav wars are also waged through straw polls, which are theoretically supposed to be part of DR.--Anonymous44 23:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Sure I have been involved in editing conflicts, and surely I have solicited help via WP:DR. Does it take effort? of course. But rather than calling it "stubbornness" I prefer to call it "I care enough". Straw polls can be used to gauge consensus, but if there is no consensus, you ask for third opinion, ask a mediator to assist, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
If you believe that WP:DR is broken, then endeavor to improve it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe anything is broken. I believe pretty much everything that we are discussing at the moment is fine, except for your interpretation of the policy. The policy specifies who the burden of evidence lies on. As I already said, appealing to the community through DR is meaningless if the community has no principles to follow; and the "burden of evidence" thing is one of these principles.
To sum up before "withdrawing" for today - the criterion for something disputed being kept on Wikipedia is whether it is sourced, not whether it seems nice and lovely, according to consensus or appears to be likely to be potentially sourceable, according to consensus. If there is something good in Wikipedia, it is due to the prevailing of the former principle; the latter is a travesty, and a potential disaster. --Anonymous44 00:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
You will be hard pressed to find experienced editors that would agree with deleting harmless material from Wikipedia articles, just because it is not sourced. Now, if the material is dubious, and if you have made efforts that did not result in finding sources, delete by all means, after placing a {{fact}} and waiting for a while. That is the way this works and is described in policy and guidelines. The policy speaks of "unsourced material that is challenged", for that the challenger needs to provide some basic data on the reason for the challenge. This is a collaborative environment, after all. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.' What does this mean?
# An editor can challenge material that is unsourced
# An editor that wants to keep the material needs to provide a source
# If a source is not provided to support the material, it may be deleted
It does not mean: "Delete material that is unsourced" ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
(Sorry for having been absent in a day.) The text is: "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page." This means you may move it to the talk page as soon as you see it, and then editors can look for sources. The citation needed period is unspecified and optional. The reason is obvious - in some cases, material seems too likely to be inaccurate, and yet editors with strong agendas may like to keep it. It's better for wikipedia to have no info than to have highly inaccurate info that misleads readers. As for (relatively) experienced editors I've done this many times (indeed I can't imagine editing without the ability to do it) and I've seen many people do it, too. --Anonymous44 14:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
If you read the talk pages of the articles in question you will see I got a third opinion on each of them. Both confirmed that I was working within WP:V. Until(1 == 2) 02:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
yes, and the third opinion told you to (my highlight) "Remove from this list the eight unsourced names until/unless a reliable source can be found for them." Not counting the many other editors that told you not to gut an article as you did. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

We should add that randomly deleting unreferenced information is considered disruptive. A real life friend read this policy and tried to do that. He was blocked. --Kaypoh 06:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

They policy says "Be careful not to go too far on the side of not upsetting editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living people". Change the policy, I will respect it, but if you cannot reach consensus on a rule, it is really just a few people with opinions pushing them. Until(1 == 2) 12:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
This is a wiki. A few people pushing their opinions are sometimes the people who insist that the written policy stay the way it is rather than be changed to what the consensus position is. The only way to tell which is which is by observing behavior and consequences. What was your behavior and what was the consequence? Which brings up the possibility of position pushers both controlling written policy content as well as a second position pushing person or group creating consequences. See wikipedia does not have a cabal. We have dozens. WAS 4.250 13:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Indeed I know. And when you all get together and decide that, whatever you want, should be a rule, I will follow it. But I have gotten nothing but contradicting advice and lack of consensus here. I will stick to established consensus. Oh, and the consequences of my acts was that 2 article that had 0 sources are now sourced. Until(1 == 2) 13:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
"the consequences of my acts was that 2 article that had 0 sources are now sourced." That's how wikipedia is supposed to work. Not to prevent conflict. But to transmute conflict into a better encyclopedia. Welcome aboard! By the way, if you aren't having fun editing wikipedia then you aren't doing it right. (I say that to everyone.) WAS 4.250 14:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, I am glad this conflict led to a better set of articles, but I think the articles could have had the same net benefit without my part being criticized, and the unsourced content remaining on the talk page until sourced. The real problem has been that my part was deemed wrong, despite being helpful and within policy, and that others refused to follow established policy and insisted on keeping uncited information in the article space instead of the talk page where policy says it should be kept. WP:V: "If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page." Established procedure, good advice. If you have a better way, make a policy change proposal, but please do not ignore existing policy. Until(1 == 2) 14:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I am glad this conflict led to a better set of articles ... This seems to sum it up quite well. Disputes arise from time to time, but if the parties involved can agree to a mutually-acceptable outcome that unquestionably improves WP content, then it's a definite win/win scenario.

Another win/win scenario would be if any further comments or discussion on this matter could be moved to the relevant Essay and User talk pages. Thanks to all involved for your consideration. Regards. dr.ef.tymac 15:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

How to interpret this policy

  • The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.
  • "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. But there is no standard for ease of verification. A long standing trusted editor may reference a published book only available in one library's special collections division while a new editor pushing a position may have an edit deleted that cites a web site that requires payment to read. Also every article has a certain amount of knowledge prerequisites in order to understand the text or the sources (eg math, language, topic knowledge). We are volunteers with limited time and reputation plays a big part in managing the place.
  • Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. But note that articles written years ago should not have claims deleted merely for lacking cites as they were created before the sourcing requirements and are slowly being properly sourced. These things take time. Make wikipedia better, don't delete things unless you have good reasons to doubt them.
  • The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article.
  • Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references.
  • If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page
  • You may tag the sentence by adding the {{fact}} template, or tag the article by adding {{Not verified}} or {{Unreferenced}}. Leave an invisible HTML comment, a note on the talk page, or an edit summary explaining what you have done
  • Be careful not to go too far on the side of not upsetting editors by leaving unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living people. Also, if you are new to wikipedia, don't upset long established editors by redeleting content they restore and quoting policy to them when they indicate that their considered judgement is that the material needs to stay and be sourced as it likely is valid yet just not sourced. Good faith, editorial judgement, and reputation all play a part. Policy is not everything.
  • Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, has said of this: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." Claims made about living persons or claims that seem to be unsourced libel or copyright violations or OTRS issues are important exceptions to our "eventualism" method of writing this encyclopedia. WAS 4.250 15:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree fully with this summary of the policy. It is not quite a summary of the policy, I see you slipped something in. "Also, if you are new to wikipedia, don't upset long established editors by redeleting content they restore and quoting policy to them when they indicate that their considered judgement is that the material needs to stay and be sourced as it likely is valid yet just not sourced. Good faith, editorial judgement, and reputation all play a part. Policy is not everything.(sic)", are you suggesting we add that to WP:V? I would support that, if that is what you are suggesting. Without the spelling mistakes of course, and I think the division between "new users" and "established" users is contrary to Wikipedia philosophy, it should go both ways. Frankly it looks to me to be identical to my proposed change #1, "Unsourced information may be re-added despite being challenged by an editor if consensus determines that the information is capable of being sourced". Please try to keep policy and opinion separate instead of mixing them together(it is hard to notice such additions). Until(1 == 2) 15:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I could get behind "Good faith, editorial judgment, and reputation all play a part. Policy is not everything. Unsourced information may be re-added despite being challenged by an editor if consensus determines that the information is capable of being sourced." or some variant, but that whole, new user obeying experience user thing is nonsense, we use consensus not seniority. Until(1 == 2) 15:42, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


Reputation is what I meant. Not senority. Some old hands have a poor reputation. A new user that uses his real name can have an excellent reputation. Thanks for the correction. WAS 4.250 15:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Are you saying you would respect my opinion on content and policy matters more if I revealed my true identity? Not gunna happen. Until(1 == 2) 15:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to change policy as expressed abundantly already in this talk page. If material is verifiable, then verify it by looking for a source. If you cannot find a source, tag it as {{fact}}, and give others a chance to look for sources. Unless, of course, it is a BLP in which case you delete on-sight. It is all in policy and guidelines. Now, lets move on to help build the encyclopedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

What you are saying is contrary to policy, and does not seem to enjoy a consensus. The policy explicitly recommends moving content to the talk page to ask for a citation, as I did. What we have is a difference of opinions, we are both trying to help the encyclopedia, you are only being insistent. There is no reason why your opinion should trump mine in absence of a consensus. Until(1 == 2) 15:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
You have agreed that reputation counts and editors with excellent reputations have refuted your mistaken interpretations. You are rapidly creating a poor reputation. Is that what you want? Stop fighting. WAS 4.250 15:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
And what you are doing, is contrary to the principles upon which these policies were developed. You are tagging articles with {{prod}} as in here, when all it took was 3 minutes of research to find a source to support the entire content of that article. Are you here to build an encyclopedia? Want others to take your edits in good faith? Then demonstrate you care for the work of others. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
As for consensus, read WP:CITE#Dealing_with_citation_problems, read WP:BLP#Remove_unsourced_or_poorly_sourced_contentious_material. It is all there. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyone who is here to delete claims that are verifiable yet just not cited are here to destry wikipedia and should be indef blocked. WAS 4.250 15:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Sure, propose a policy for it, I will follow it. Please try to remember, I didn't delete anything, I moved it to the talk page as the policy told me to do. In the interests of this talk page, you can continue this dialog with me on the essay talk page where I hope to represent both policies and the opinions of all involved in a neutral fashion. I will not be posting here unless a change to the policy is proposed. Until(1 == 2) 16:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC

Unsourced statements - may? or might?

I hate to belabor a topic that seems to have been settled, but I have one further thought about the discussions above, as they relate to the line:

"Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."

I think the word "may" could be the problem. On one hand it can be read as a warning to editors who are writing articles - that any unsourced material they add "might" be removed. On the other hand it can be read as giving permission to editors who are reviewing articles - that they "are allowed" to remove unsourced material. Given that the rest of the sentence is addressed to the editors doing the writing, I have always assumed that it was intended as a warning... but it is obvious from the discussion above that others see it as granting permission (or even granting a mandate) to delete. So what is the intent?

If the intent is a warning, I would suggest changing the word "may" to "might"... as it would make the intent clearer. If the intent is to grant permission, then I think we need a clear pointer to a guideline that tells editors when they should do so. Blueboar 16:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, no... the may vs. might grammar question... :) See page 2 of [3] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
May poses a possibility; might adds a greater degree of uncertainty to the possibility. In that context, it may be better to use might(no pun intended). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
This ambiguity did not occur to me. I took it as a clear statement of what can be done under ones own editorial judgment. If it is indeed meant as a warning that "under some circumstances it could be removed", and not "you can remove this", then it indeed needs to be made more clear. I don't think just changing "may" to "might" will do it. I agree with Blueboar that we need a clear pointer to a guideline that tells editors when they should remove content, when they can use their own judgment, and when they must not remove content. Until(1 == 2) 17:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
[ed conf] I don't think so. This policy has been used successfully by tens of thousands of editors so far and there was not ambiguity expressed. We are here to build an encyclopedia collaboratively, not to delete content just because it is unsourced, unless it is a BLP. The guidelines are only ambiguous if you want to see them as such. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes it might it be better to say "may"... or may we say "might"?... We may! (and, come to think of it, we just might)! :>) Arggh... I didn't think about that. But back to my question... are we intending to warn or to grant permission? In either case, is there a better phrasing that would make the intent clear? (And just to make things very difficult... I suppose the intent could be to do both... in which case the wording is probably fine as it is.) Blueboar 17:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Somebody could find when it was added, and look on the talk page for that date, and ask the user who made the contribution. But I think it has been there so long, finding that revision would be difficult. Until(1 == 2) 17:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I do not think we need to fix what is no broken. If a new editor finds this unclear, we explain this as we have done so far. Let's move on, shall we? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I think if we're to assume good faith, that any editor finding a policy ambiguous or misunderstanding such implies that there is an ambiguity or lack of clarity, even if it is minor. Furthermore, something happening once tends to imply that it may happen again. As such, I think that a clarification is going to save work in the long run. SamBC 17:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this should be discussed instead of just dismissed. But that is just one editor's opinion. Until(1 == 2) 17:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Jossi... I consider myself an experienced editor, and I'm not clear. That's why I raised the question. Are you so sure it ain't broke? Blueboar 17:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
It is quite simple, really... Material that is challenged, needs a reason for the challenge. That is what "challenged" means. If editor X sees material that is unsourced, he can do one of several things according to existing guidelines and policies: (1) try to find a source; (2) Ask for sources using {{fact}} or {{unreferenced}}; (3) Challenge the material by asking in talk page. Then, wait a reasonable time period and let other editors put effort in finding a source. The "or it may be removed" formulation is a last resort option, i.e. you could not find a source and no one else found a source within a reasonable period of time. At that time, deletion is an option to be considered. This applies to most content that is not contentious or controversial. In these cases, editors may decide that it would be better to delete and move to talk than to leave on mainspace material that is dubious. The problem is that we cannot inculcate "clueness", and there is no way that policy can depict each and every type of situation, hence the perceived ambiguity. If we keep in m ind the main purpose of this project, we should be reluctant to delete content contributed by another editor (remember WP:AGF), unless the material is unverifiable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
UI have no problem that that is what is meant, intended, or generally seen as what is done. It is not, however, what the guidance unambiguously says. If something along the lines of what you just said were in the guidance, then that'd be great, but it isn't, as far as I can tell. SamBC 19:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
What I am trying to say that we should be weary of WP:CREEP. Nothing bets a good explanation for these users that need one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I definitely agree that we should be weary of creep... in fact, I asked for clarification to avoid just that. If we only meant to imply a warning then we should use language that does not have a "permissive" side (which is where I was trying to go with the may->might idea) ... and if we imply permission, then a simple "see: WP:CITE" should do it for clarification. Or are you saying that the sentence in question is intended to be both a warning to the writer, and a granting of permission to other editors? If this is the case, then I think the wording is fine as it is. Blueboar 19:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
@Blueboar and SamBC. Your basic points have merit, but there are some pretty fundamental complications here (both immediate-term-view and long-term-view) that call into question whether a clarification is appropriate:
  • 1) this entire discussion was/is (at least partially) influenced by a specific dispute, the fervor of which may be influencing our judgment here (perhaps a "time-out" is called for?);
  • 2) there are profoundly different perspectives on the precise "method of interpretation" contributors are expected to apply to the broad spectrum of WP policy (as a whole) ... if you are a lawyer or law student, this is analogous to the familiar problem of Statutory construction;
  • 3) as an experienced WP contributor, you are no doubt also familiar with the confrontations and arguments that have surrounded WP:IAR and to a lesser extent WP:BOLD, these also suggest there are different valid "interpretive" approaches;
  • 4) although WP:NPOV is expressly identified as "absolutely non-negotiable" (along with certain aspects of WP:LIVING [and a few others?]) ... it is an open question whether and to what extent all policy is intended to codify prescriptive rather than heuristic standards of contributor conduct; and
  • 5) because there are several fundamental issues of construction and interpretation at play here, and because a contributor expressly requested for "clarification of the rules" ... it is not entirely obvious that such a "rule-oriented" clarification would be appropriate here, absent wider feedback from the WP community.
In short, it is not entirely obvious that a 'rule-oriented' reformulation of policy is appropriate here to begin with ... perhaps it is, or perhaps this question demands clarification from a broader cross-section of the WP community. In any event this seems to be a bigger question than just clarifying the wording for the benefit of contributors who want to know "what are the rules". This is especially problematic considering that the underlying dispute that started this actually got "resolved" through discussion and cooperation. dr.ef.tymac 19:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. Discussion and collaboration is the process, which worked here. As for Blueboar question, Yes. In one case it can be read as a warning ("hey! we need a source for that material" or it may be deleted), and further down the line it can be read as permission ("no source, dubious, asked for sources, waited for two weeks, deleting now"). Maybe all is needed is a clarification about that is a somewhat linear process. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
That's a very insightful way of looking at it, really - the problem is essentially (I think) that what is meant to be a series of possibilities that follow one another in time can be interpretted as a set of simultaneous choices. SamBC 20:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, but then how does that reconcile with process descriptions such as this? ->Image:Consensus new and old.svg.dr.ef.tymac 20:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
That diagram refers to edits and not to sourcing, Dreftymac. And in any case, a diagram is just an ideal representation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I'm aware of that distinction, the point is: 1) it is reasonable to infer sourcing is subject to the same kind of iterative procedure (e.g., upgrading sources to more reliable publications, determining wh/ the cite is accurately represented etc.); and 2) someone who is familiar with the relevant policies and guidelines should be expected to understand the iterative process of collaboration in general. dr.ef.tymac 20:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Rewording this policy for unsourced content

I tried this which was promptly reverted. Does that wording helps or makes this more confusing? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Apologies for the revert ≈ jossi ≈. I am still not yet convinced that the current wording suffers the deficiency that others apparently see here. If I am in the distinct minority on this I will gladly defer, but it seems pretty well-established that iterative review of all content (including discussions of sourcing) is a fundamental expectation of all WP contributors, except in those instances where the content is strictly and unambiguously prohibited.
Like I said, if I am the odd-man-out on this, ok then. dr.ef.tymac 20:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
This change looks like a perfect minimal change that clarifies the issue and avoids the misunderstanding that we're talking about. SamBC 20:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
It's sensible, I don't have a problem with it. But Dreftymac raised two points in the thread just before this one about collaboration that I agree with, and I would just like to add that it's also a matter of courtesy to other editors as part of WP:EQ: "Avoid reverts and deletions whenever possible." — Zerida 20:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Some supporting rationale: In support and substantiation of my rationale, consider the recently rejected proposal to "clarify" WP:3RR (relating to unsourced content) Wikipedia_talk:Three-revert_rule#3RR_too_vague. Note the rationales of the opponents of the "clarification".
The in due course wording also seems like a "danger flag" to me. I'd hate to see this become a nod to cranks who will assert "not enough time" has been given, and then use the "sit and wait" strategy for including unsourced dubious material.
Nevertheless, keep the comments coming. I'm not going to oppose if stable support for this minor change becomes apparent. I just hope people are not reacting more to a transitory dispute rather than a critical flaw in this (and other closely-related) policy wording. dr.ef.tymac 21:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
In the hope that this reassures you, I really have no idea what the original dispute was; the discussion led me to look at the issue in question, and I can see the confusion. I'm not sure how I'd interpret it, especially with the idea of being bold. SamBC 21:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I share dr.ef.tymac's concern about not driving policy out of an exception. I was just trying to see of we could make a small change that will clarify that time is a factor here. We do not delete content without giving a chance for sources to emerge. We challenge content, we wait, and then we act if there are no sources forthcoming (unless is an unsourced or poorly sourced claim in a BLP). I would argue that this the the spirit of this portion of the policy and the consensus understanding in the community, and that "in due course" addition may be one way to clarify it. But I would also say that it may not be needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not particularly enthousiastic about changing longstanding policy langage. In this case, "may" is, indeed, ambiguous, but having sat there and instructed many editors as argued by Jossi, I think it is reasonable to assume it has the degree of ambiguity that works best for the Wikipedia project. Having said that, my own interpretattion of the ambiguity squares with Jossi's "in due course" edit and I strongly support it. To me it means that editors can and should take their time when time is not an issue, and be swift about deleting unsourced content when it is. Paradoxicallly, the proposed change emphasizes the ambiguity rather than resolving it -- for good reason. Avb 01:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
"May" was used to mean "might be removed," and "is allowed to be removed." We used to have some sentences making clear that material shouldn't be moved too hastily, but I've just noticed someone removed it. Perhaps that should be restored. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 01:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Of course, "in due course" may be sufficient to indicate that minimally, without the need for excess text. I'm not advocating one side or the other; I just think it's worth considering the concise version versus the verbose version. SamBC 01:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Good idea. Until(1 == 2) 01:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Exactly (about the meaning). I'm not sure about any removed text; perhaps you mean the following sentences some paragraphs down: "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references"? Avb 01:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, then there was something about "This provision should never be used disruptively." But those sentences were with the "may be removed" thing, I think. I'll try to find time to look more carefully later. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 02:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
It might be a good idea to add this: "Challenges should not be made frivolously or casually. Editors making a challenge should have reason to believe the material is contentious, false, or otherwise inappropriate." It's from Wikipedia: When to cite, which is just an essay, but it's one Raul uses in the FA criteria page. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 07:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
No, WP:V should not be concerned with editor (mis)behaviour or motive. The above clause requires the challenger to have knowledge of the subject. Colin°Talk 12:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

(<---)That's a wonderful suggestion SlimVirgin. To Colin: What kind of encyclopedia do you envision will be written by policies that do not require people making desicions about articles to have knowledge of the subject? WAS 4.250 13:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the type of "decision making" that, of course, requires knowledge of the subject. This discussion concerns readers/editors making a challenge, requesting that information be cited. I should not have be a subject expert to make such a challenge, nor should I need to harbour suspicions that the fact is untrue or contentious. For example, on Coeliac disease, we state that the link with wheat was made in 1950 by Dr Willem Dicke. That statement isn't false, inappropriate or contentious. It is just the sort of statement you'd expect to read (and learn) in an encyclopaedia. On WP, you'd also expect to find a source to back it up. Are you saying that if the above statement wasn't explicitly sourced (which it is), I would be unable to request one? Colin°Talk 14:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I am saying that it is harmful to the encyclopedia to clutter it up with tags by someone who neither understands the subject nor has read the cited sources nor has made an effort to reseach the issue. If you don't know an article's subject and you refuse to learn about it do not edit that article. We have science and math articles that driveby taggers clutter with tags asking for a cite for things that are known true by anyone with the prerequisites to understand the page and are often also in the sources that are referenced but are so well known that no one who understands the field would bother to specifically cite. WAS 4.250 15:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
But the reader isn't going to necessarily know these facts that are obvious to anyone who had a grounding in a subject, remember an encyclopedia is often a layman's starting point for research. The citations that explain these things that are the prerequisites to understanding the subject are very important to the reader. Citations are not just about challenging things, they are also about informing the reader and aiding in their research. Until(1 == 2) 16:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
WAS 4.250, you've got a problem with editor behaviour (driveby taggers) and also with differing opinions on when/what to cite. The former cannot be resolved by WP:V, which is a "content policy". We have plenty guidelines on editor behaviour. The latter is still actively being debated, and given the state of Wikipedia: When to cite, not going to get resolved any time soon.
I have no problem with the first sentence in SV's proposed text; whether it belongs here is another matter. The second sentence is flawed IMO for reasons I have given. Remember, a "challenge" isn't just tagging an article with annoying templates. It includes the kind of comments made at peer review and GAC/FAC/FLC. It not only prevents an ignorant reader/editor from requesting sources but it also prevents a knowledgeable reviewer from requesting sources for facts that he/she knows are valid but, in their opinion, require sourcing. Now, if the second sentence concerned the deletion of unsourced/challenged material, it might be more useful. Colin°Talk 17:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, "material shouldn't be removed too hastily", per the very definition of the word "too". But it is clear that in some cases, not limited to vandalism, copyright and BLP issues (as Jossi implies), the unsourced material should be removed hastily, and indeed immediately - this is a matter of editorial judgement. Thus, introducing a mandatory period of toleration, i.e. citation needed tagging, would be harmful. So immediate removal should be an option. Now, if people are allowed to re-introduce removed material without a source, that will lead to edit warring and make such conflicts much loner and more painful. That will also, as far as I can see, make the "burden of evidence" statement meaningless. Whenever I've moved things to the talk page, people have responded by sourcing them and not by reverting - but that was because they hadn't read the above discussion. --Anonymous44 15:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Self-published sources

Are you intending to alter the meaning of this, or do you simply not notice what difference your editing would make? If the former, are you aware of the implications? SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not know to whom you are addressing the above, but I would encourage you to check the history. I have not edited any of the disputed text, so I am surprised about your edit summary [4]. I have been having a constructive discussion above on a different matter altogether. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't know who initiated this change, but it's nonsensical, and I'd like to know if whoever did it or agreed to it understands the implications of it. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
It was not me. As it has no consensus in any case, it should not stay. And if there is a need to protect, we shall. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
It was started by TimVickers (talk · contribs) here, in an attempt to check if there is consensus. Clearly there is not. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Please, take a look at WP:CON. — Zerida 23:42, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, he tried, and was reverted and discussion can continue. But editwarring will not solve this. I have re-protected. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
(ec) Then perhaps you did not read it as I had suggested, Jossi. By all counts, a consensus was established on this page; it does not require that every editor agree with all the changes, especially when there is only 2 or 3 dissenters whose idea of a consensus is to mercilessly edit-war over the page to maintain their preferred version. That is not what consensus entails. Now, the fact that actual consensus was disregarded is an entirely different matter. — Zerida 23:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
That would apply to consensus in an article. When discussion changes to policy it is expected a much wider consensus, much, much wider than just a few editors commenting in talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually, if the history of this page or WP:RS, before it was made hopelessly ineffective, is any indication, it would seems to be what gets edit-warred over enough on the pages that becomes policy. The fact that several, perhaps idealistic, editors, after seeing the policies becoming almost irrevocably compromised over months of gutting, poor editing, and edit-warring, thought that this could be accomplished through give-and-take discussion instead were clearly under an illusion. The obstinate refusal to engage with other editors or to respect consensus when others have repeatedly asked for input during the protection period in order to agree to a compromise only adds insult to injury. And it's disappointing. — Zerida 00:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The page was protected by Quadell for good reason, as a very small number of editors, all or most of whom have never edited policy pages before, are trying to push through a change that would prioritize scholarly sources. There is no consensus for this change, and it's highly disingenuous to claim that there is, just because a tiny number of you decide there is on talk.
As for the change to the self-published sources section, that would have opened us up to all kinds of nonsense.
This is very poor behavior. These policies need to be stable. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Changing the policy so that it creates various classes of reliable sources would be a significant change to WP:V. We need to get a serious consensus for these kinds of changes to Wikipedia's fundamental policy, not just a couple of people with little experience in the policies coming to some new agreement on a Talk: page. Jayjg (talk) 23:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The change to Self-published sources was made by user Omegatron while the page was still protected. diff Tim Vickers 23:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
[en conf] I fully agree. Policy pages need stability, but page protection is only temporary. Editors that insist in changing long-standing formulation of policy need to present strong arguments and convince the community that these changes are helpful. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
It was Y who re-protected, just for the record, as an uninvolved admin. The later reprotection was an edit conflict, I assume, which is perhaps what caused the sprotection to be inserted by mistake. Picaroon has sorted it out. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
What a mess! mea culpa for unprotecting too early. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
No worries, Jossi. It's sorted out now. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 00:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: this page was requested for protection of RFPP very recently. If anyone wants to know, I have answered that request in case the protecting administrator was unaware of that request. Acalamari 00:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Current version as a compromise wording?

Although consensus was apparently reached here, now more editors are involved, we may get a broader range of opinion. The current "Wrong version" wording is:

Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources is also welcome in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text.

I can live with omitting "with good reputations for accuracy" as this can be argued to be redundant with "reliable". The "attribution" statement is OK and although saying sources are "welcome" seems to the gilding the lily, this doesn't alter the main meaning of the paragraph for me. This version, if not ideal, therefore seems OK with me. Does this version deal with any NPOV concerns? Tim Vickers 00:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Please stop arranging these mini straw polls. There is no consensus to change this policy to prioritize scholarly sources and to downgrade other reliable sources. You would need a very strong consensus to do that, not just agreement between a small number of previously uninvolved editors on this talk page. You don't have that very strong consensus, so please stop edit warring to include it in the policy. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 00:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that a strong majority consensus has been demonstrated 3 times now. Once on WP:RS and twice here. In fact the only real opposition that i've seen so far is yours. --Kim D. Petersen 14:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


Tim, read the header in this page. To make such a deep change in policy you will need more than just a few people discussing in talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, I do not see this proposed change making it through. And I say that with the conviction that comes from experience. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to work towards consensus on the talk page. If you think wider input would be a good idea, do people recommend listing this discussion at the village pump or RfC/policy? On the proposal, SlimVirgin, are you unhappy with any statement that one source is more reliable than another? Is your position that reliability is binary and something is either reliable or not, and that you can't state that something is more likely to be reliable than something else? Tim Vickers 00:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You know what my position is. We don't and can't define reliability, though we have offered some rules of thumb. All reliable sources are welcome in every article, per NPOV. That's it. We don't say "this kind of source is always better here," because it will depend on context.
We don't decide policy by straw poll, or according to who can post most often about it.