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Contents 1 Sources that are "widely acknowledged as extremist" 1.1 Arbitrary break 1.2 Suggestion 2 Accurately representing sources - unnecessary according to policy? 3 Requirement of direct quotation for use of non-English sources 3.1 Various wordings 3.2 Non-English sources discussion 4 Research Department: Web's Largest Free Law Library Opens to the Public 5 Mailing lists as sources 6 Citing Product as a Reference 7 Official Game Forums 8 A question 9 Material on use of secondary sources 10 grading verifiability - separating fact from fiction 11 Restricting questionable sources to articles about themselves 11.1 Mock-up 12 "Should" vs "Must" 13 Qur'an 14 Yearbooks 15 Unreliable sources used as references 16 Which trumps which: manfuacturers or reviewers? 17 Proposed addition to Sources section 18 citing non-english websites 19 Proposed new section - What verification is 20 Non-English sources 21 citing a newspaper article that is no longer online 22 Need experts on WP:Verifiability, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE 23 Television programs, especially paid 24 Definition 25 MoS quote for so-called "logical" punctuation order 26 Using an entire book as a reference 27 Verifiability not truth 28 Discussion of breaches? 29 WP as a source 30 Discussions of WP:SELFPUB 30.1 Sources that are "widely acknowledged as extremist" 30.1.1 Arbitrary break 30.1.2 Suggestion 30.2 Restricting questionable sources to articles about themselves 30.3 Mock-up 30.4 Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves - Policy unclear 30.5 What does "themselves" mean? 30.6 Potential rewrite of WP:SELFPUB 30.7 Purpose of SELFPUB 30.8 My proposal for rewriting WP:SELFPUB

Sources that are "widely acknowledged as extremist"

I'd like to ask people to review this part of the policy, which I've often seen misused to keep out POV that individual editors dislike:

Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves.

The point of this provision was to prevent edits such as the white-supremacist website, Stormfront, being used as a source in an article about ancient Egyptians. This is unfortunately a real example, and it was a regular editor who did it, not an anon passing by or a single-issue account. Clearly, where edits like these are being made, there's a need for a provision of some kind in this policy.

However, I've most often see the provision used to keep out POV that editors disapprove of. There are two separable problems with the provision:

• First, the word "extremist" is being extended to cover activist groups that some editors simply dislike. It has even been invoked to try to keep certain political research organizations from being used as sources, even about events that they themselves are directly involved in, on the grounds that the article in question is not actually about them.

• Secondly, regarding groups that really are "widely acknowledged as extremist," it is being used to stop them from being used as sources — about events they are directly involved in — in summary-style summaries in other articles. For example, someone recently tried to stop the Animal Liberation Front from being used as a source about a raid the ALF conducted, on the grounds that the article about the raid was being summarized (summary style) in another article, and that the ALF could only be used as a source in an article about the raid itself. I think when the provision is being used to stop a group or person from being allowed to say "This is what I or we did" (when the issue is genuinely a notable one), then it needs to be reviewed.

Another editor recently tried to add to RS that, even when extremist sources are quoted by reliable sources, they still can't be cited unless the article is about the extremist source. [1] [2] This would mean that Hitler could not be cited by scholarly sources except in the article about Hitler.

Is there a way we can keep the spirit of this provision, but without having the baby constantly being thrown out with the bathwater? In my view, it should be sufficient to stress that what's important is that sources be used "appropriately," (which the policy does say), but clearly it's not enough.

I'd normally suggest alternative wording myself, but I have an interest in this because I often use animal rights groups as sources on issues they themselves are involved in, so I'd like to throw this open for discussion rather than suggesting a change myself. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 06:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. As you're involved in a dispute on this very point right now, I'm hesitant to support any change. Plus, this is old, stable, and widely-quoted wording. The only additions I might suggest are self-characterizations or examples of a particular phenomenon. "The ALF describes itself as an organization dedicated to animal liberation" could be acceptably sourced to them on an article not directly about them. On the second point, you might quote a racist organization on racism, as an example for readers. But no specific factual claims should be sourced to such organizations. If the ALF claims to have found a monkey hanging upside down in lab, you can't report that here unless a reliable source has done so. (And PETA isn't one, incidentally.) Marskell (talk) 15:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Marskell, your assumption of bad faith is really very unpleasant. I wrote above: "I'd normally suggest alternative wording myself, but I have an interest in this because I often use animal rights groups as sources on issues they themselves are involved in ..."

So what is the point of your comment that "As you're involved in a dispute on this very point right now, I'm hesitant to support any change"? You're saying that the policy must not change, even a change for the better, in case I win a dispute? That's an extraordinary thing to say. Please apologize if that's what you meant, and if it wasn't, please say what you did mean. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 18:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I just meant that I'm hesitant to engage with something I don't see as a pressing problem when it's obviously the result of an on-going content dispute. I didn't say policy must not change—I offered two examples that I've previously thought of. Marskell (talk) 19:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not the result of an ongoing content dispute. The thing that really triggered it for me was the edit to RS that even if secondary sources cite an extremist source, we still can't use them (an edit made by SandyGeorgia and one other editor, which may explain your presence here). Did you read what I wrote above? There have been problems with the way this provision has been interpreted almost since day one. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Re. "The thing that really triggered it for me was the edit to RS that even if secondary sources cite an extremist source, we still can't use them", I think it isn't there. I think it was in there in total maybe a few hours. I think I was the last one to remove it [3] - talk page showed no consensus for this change, see Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources#Extremist sources. SandyGeorgia's involvement in the issue was minimal: she applied a cpedit to rokus' phrasing [4] That's all, SandyGeorgia did neither protest its removal, nor supported rokus' plea on talk after the phrase's removal.

SlimVirgin, I haven't still quite forgotten your personal attack on SandyGeorgia here, hitting gravely on others in the process. Yes, it was the late hours of a disheartening ArbCom, which I hold as an attenuating circumstance in your favour. I'm only explaining why I gave some time to explaining (1) that the phrase is no longer (and even wasn't very long) in the WP:RS guideline, and (2) it's a bit frivolous to name SandyGeorgia as a complice in something she had barely anything to do with. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What on earth is it with people who are forced to focus on personal comments? If you have something to say here about the extremism provision, please do. Otherwise please take the comments elsewhere. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What was unclear about "see Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources#Extremist sources"? --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Marskell, In the past I've also had problems with SlimVirgin selectively editing Wikipedia's policies and then immediately turning around and using those very same edits as a cudgel in her ongoing wikipedia disputes. I strongly agree that people in the midst of a dispute should not be editing the policy pages, particularly when such edits are specifically contrived to advanced one's own personal agenda. For the sake of objectivity, this practice must be stopped. SlimVirgin, I call upon you to play fair and play by the rules. --Ryan Utt (talk) 19:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Ryan Utt has spent much of his time at Wikipedia trying to post actionable libel about someone, which frequently has to be deleted, which is why he's had problems with me. Is this Stalk SlimVirgin Day or something? Do I get an award? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

My presence here is a result of my watching the page; I'm often present here. (As for RS, I'm still with you that we should get rid of the thing; I didn't notice Sandy's edit.) And I also have no idea about any problem with Ryan Utt.

Anyway, it's very hard to disentangle other disputes from this discussion at the moment, so just ignore my signature and think of the following idea. I've mentally toyed with a section on V that could partly address what you brought up: Phrasal attribution, as I call it, (or In-sentence attribution). Basically, we could loosen the rules a little bit on questionable sources if we demanded that they are flagged in-sentence at every iteration ("X has claimed..."). Although it seems a weird example, think of holy books. We would never write "The world was created in seven days" and source it to Genesis. But we're free to write "According to the Book of Genesis, the world was created in seven days". And we can reasonably do so on pages that aren't specific to the Bible. Not that in-sentence attribution would allow for unlimited use of questionable sources—we would have to word things carefully. But it might be a way into a solution. Marskell (talk) 20:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that in-text attribution is pretty much a given for anything remotely contentious. The question is how far can this be taken? Do we have a working definition (even a rough one) of "extremist"? Then once we have it, what exactly should the limitations on extremist sources be? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

A source with a politically extreme POV that's still known as reliable by related professionals, how do we feel about that? ClaudeReigns (talk) 20:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

That should be fine, but it would depend on the editors and how much they disliked the POV. Do you have a specific example? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Some stuff on the American right comes to mind. The American Enterprise Institute. Even editorials in the WSJ. Still think in-sentence attribution is appropriate to such cases. Marskell (talk) 21:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not what's meant by "extremist." SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What's "extremist" depends on where you stand, and where you stand depends, in part, on where you sit. Some people would say that being published in the Wall Street Journal is proof positive of being not "extremist", but solidly within the mainstream. The government in Washington regards the regime in Tehran as extremist, and the government in Tehran may well think the same of the regime in Washington. --FOo (talk) 21:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes of course the Wall Street Journal is mainstream. The problem with this provision is being demonstrated in this discussion. By extremist sources, we really did mean things like Stormfront, which was given as an example when the provision was written. At some point that example was removed, and so now people are calling anything they strongly dislike "extremist." SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I've had occasion to mention before that the intent of the writer of policy and how it is eventually used are not usually the same thing here. This shouldn't come as a surprise either, since its usually the same in the real world.... Relata refero (talk) 09:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting the WSJ is an extremist source. I was suggesting that many view it as "A source with a politically extreme POV that's still known as reliable by related professionals." I was just replying to Claude. Marskell (talk) 21:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

That bit about Stormfront is hilarious. I was thinking about quoting Zahi Hawass in an article about the plight of the white American male. Kidding! No, the source I was thinking of was the Executive Intelligence Review. Totally POV, but has some reputation for reliability. ClaudeReigns (talk) 06:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Clarification: The thing that really triggered it for me was the edit to RS that even if secondary sources cite an extremist source, we still can't use them (an edit made by SandyGeorgia and one other editor, which may explain your presence here). Please stop these kinds of accusations. Regarding my edit at RS, I altered the wording inserted by the previous editor simply because something I thought was unintelligible English was inserted at RS and popped up on my watchlist, and I attempted to make sense of what the editor was trying to say. I didn't take a position on the edit one way or another. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Sandy, honestly, we don't need this across multiple threads. I'm going to click the red X on my browser now. As I said to Slim, we can't all realistically ignore each other because we all edit and watch policy, but, today at least, we should stop talking. I posted suggestions above that I mean earnestly, but will bring them up again later. Marskell (talk) 21:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's not an accusation, just a statement of fact. Someone made a very controversial edit to the guideline, but rather than remove it, you fixed the writing of it, so I assumed you must agree with it, at least in part. Otherwise it's hard to see why you would have left it in. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Your mistake was assuming anything. Discussion should continue elsewhere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, I explained the WP:RS incident, from what I knew about it above. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

An accurate summary; I took no position on that edit except that something unintelligible had been added to a guideline, which would confuse anyone reading it until it could be resolved. It was later removed by others, so there was no reason for me to continue commenting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I have often thought that this entire section should be scrapped, because there's nothing here that careful use of WP:NPOV won't take care of, but it seems to be widely used to keep articles mainstream, and most things that serve that purpose should be retained. Relata refero (talk) 09:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we can scrap it because it does keep a lot of nonsense out. But I think we need to consider what it means and how to advise that it be applied consistently. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)}

Oh, and SV, you could have warned me that you'd changed your mind so I could keep an eye on this page. Not fair! Relata refero (talk) 09:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and if you see what I wrote there, our advice to use sources "appropriately" really should be enough. But increasingly I'm seeing people stick rigidly to the letter of this policy, and not the spirit, so it means we have to make sure we understand the implications of what we write. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 13:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

The text SlimVirgin has highlighted used to say

Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves. (See below.) Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources.

The example of extremist websites was added as a port from WP:ATT. The added text is similar to that which has remained fairly stable since ATT was created in Oct 2006 by SlimVirgin.

Is the ALF "widely acknowledge to be extremist"? Some people think so (see Animal Liberation Front#Listing as a terrorist threat). Balaclavas—check. Destruction of property—check. Disregard for the law—check. Self-published video propaganda—check. Mainstream front organisation—check. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the extremist aspect. Extremism is only one of several possible characteristics of a questionable source. The examples given aren't intended to be complete, but one other example is sources that are "promotional in nature". An activist campaign group typically produces material that is highly promotional (effectively an advert, but probably closer to a Party Political Broadcast without the regulatory framework). As such, it is a questionable source.

In a recent edit SlimVirgin almost cited this section when saying "The ALF may be used as a source in articles about its own actions, per WP:V." Their "actions" is a slight alteration of "about themselves" which is harmess when considered a subset of "about themselves" but not when their "actions" is extended to involve third parties.

The section of Animal testing that recently provoked this debate declares itself to be a summary section of Britches (monkey). But that article is not about the ALF—it is about a monkey, the claims made about its treatment, and commentary on this. WP:V makes it clear that questionable sources may not be used in claims about "third parties". The monkey and the lab where is was found is a third party. In addition, such sources may only be used if the claim "is not contentious". Apparently, the university disagrees with some aspects of the claims and video footage (see SV's edit above). Finally, such sources may only be used when "there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it". The ALF video is anonymous and likely to remain so. Frankly, I prefer not to get my reliable information from an anonymous bod in a balaclava on some internet video.

So whether or not you think WP:SS extends the domain of "articles about themselves" to include summary sections, this particular questionable source is being misused. I see no reason to change WP:V in order to make this misuse acceptable. Colin°^Talk 14:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Colin, I don't think the "extremist" part was moved from ATT to here. I think it was moved from RS, though it may have gone via ATT at some point.

There are two issues here. The first is when groups widely acknowledged to be extremist may be used as sources, and you're right that the ALF is such a group. Certainly, they may be used as sources about themselves in articles about them, and obviously that includes their actions, because they don't exist without their actions.

One question is whether that extends to summary-style summaries of articles about them in other articles.

But that's just one issue. The more pressing issue is what we mean by "widely acknowledged as extremist." For at least a couple of years, I've seen this provision invoked many times to keep out sources with a strong POV that editors don't like. For example, it has been used to try to keep out material from Political Research Associates, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the Anti-defamation League. But having a strong POV obviously shouldn't be equated with "widely acknowledged as extremist." So the question is how we pin down what we mean by the phrase. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 14:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

This is where the "extremist" provision was added to this policy, three months ago. My memory is that it was originally in RS, but was removed, but I'll need to check the history. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 14:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I added it to RS in August 2005. It said: "However, that a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it, although editors should avoid using political groups with widely acknowledged extremist views, like Stormfront or the Socialist Workers' Party. Groups like these may be used as primary sources only i.e. as sources about themselves, and even then with caution and sparingly. [5]

So the point was that extremist sources may only be used as primary sources. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 14:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's not muddy the water with "primary sources", of which everyone seems to have their own definition. We're dealing with "questionable sources" here, of which extremist sites/organisations is only one example. BTW: your diff on WP:V is the same one as mine, where the author's edit summary is "Added line ported from WP:ATT". Oh, and I think you mean 2005, not 1985!!

LOL!! Sorry. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of its origins, it has stood the test of time.

Nothing here is black and white. There's degrees of extremism and degrees of questionableness. At some point we draw the line and say "you can use that to say 'XYZ claims to be' or 'XYZ claims to have done' but no more". Even something as innocuous as a Head & Shoulders advert couldn't be used to back up a statement that dandruff was easy to remove.

You haven't responded to my point that "their actions" don't extend to claims they make about third parties (the lab and the animals). This is important as it frames the extent to which this policy statement applies. In this regard, I'm citing the section "Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves" which is an extension of the paragraph under discussion.

Their actions have to extend to the labs, obviously. The ALF is an activist group. They are their actions. And obviously if they are doing something, they are doing it to a someone or in a somewhere. The point is that they are used to tell us what they did there, not what other people did. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is "obvious" and it is important. You say the sources are not being used to tell us "what other people did." But they are. They are being used to tell us what scientists did to a monkey in the name of research. The monkey, its condition and the experiment are neither "the ALF" nor "their actions". Colin°^Talk 15:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we can be flexible on a "good faith" summary section. One problem is that it is too easy to slap a "main article" template over a paragraph or section. In general, I don't view WP:SS as anything other than a "how to decide what goes where" guideline; it certainly doesn't allow for violations of policy (such as the not infrequent claim that such sections are exempt from the need for citations).

I'm less concerned with establishing a bullet proof definition of "extremist". The closer an organisation or source gets to extremism, fundamentalism or out-and-out propaganda/promotion, the less its utterances should be regarded as sound. If a subject is notable enough to be discussed here then good reliable people will have already discussed it and we can cite them. Having to cite stuff "on the edge" is really a sign that ones argument is either fringe or ignored, and either way, WP doesn't need it. Colin°^Talk 15:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you're mixing up different issues. The ALF is only used as a source on issues that mainstream sources have written about. But you keep coming back to only that example, and the rhetoric is getting in the way of the argument.

I come back to this issue since it is what (by your admission) provoked the discussion, and there remain unanswered disagreements over policy interpretation that make it a useful example. But we can move on if you like. Colin°^Talk 15:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The point is that, as it stands, the provision could be interpreted to mean that Adolf Hitler cannot be cited in any article that isn't about him. So in Antisemitism, we cannot, according to this policy, tell the reader what Adolf Hitler said in Mein Kampf about Jews. So we do need to clarify what we mean without diluting the spirit of the provision. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the "in articles about themselves" restriction could get in the way of reasonable use. At this moment, I can't think of an alternative. My suggestion: we start a fresh new talk section dealing with the issue of "restricting questionable sources to articles about themselves". It can then be discussed without the distraction of definitions of extremism, or any current disputes. Colin°^Talk 15:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I am, unfortunately, just passing through and I am not going to have time to follow this discussion properly. However what I have read so far of this discussion brings one particular case to mind that some of you might find instructive. I would like to share it with you in case anyone finds it useful or wants to discuss it:

David Irving is not only an extremist; he is also known to be a very dishonest historian. Nevertheless there is one aspect of his work that has been praised by respectable historians, namely his grasp of German troop movements during WWII. To what extent might it be appropriate to cite someone like David Irving in a Wikipedia article? ireneshusband (talk) 04:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Troop movements, of course. ClaudeReigns (talk) 07:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Only if there are other sources that confirm it. He is so untrustworthy, I think he requires more verification. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 17:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The point I would like to make is on articles like global warming where articles which question the evidence are immediately labelled as "extremist" and "unreliable" by a vociferous group who maintain a stanchly pro-warming POV and effectively block out any balance. Now I say this as someone who at the time was a believer in global warming who tried to put a single link to a related article on oil running out. Unfortunately the result of this one-sided dominance is that the article on global warming is laughable and seriously undermines the credibility of wikipedia as a source. From my experience on that article, trying to be a neutral judge between the two sides, I am quite convinced that groups of people gang up and use both the rules of wikipedia and their admin status to ensure very POV articles. One huge problem is that one side can present largely coincidental "evidence" which suggests something, and then block any article which questions whether the evidence is coincidental saying it is merely "opinion". Thus huge number of reports of possibly entirely coincidental events can be quoted by one side, whilst those articles expressing proper scientific sceptism are blocked. Bugsy (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

We might consider consigning all discussion of what is a good/bad source that happens in this policy to WP:RS. WP:V should defer to WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE, etc. in determining what qualifies as a good source. WP:V should only be about being able to verify points for inclusion. A fact can be unverifiable for a lot of reasons, sourcing being only one issue. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Accurately representing sources - unnecessary according to policy?

WP:DIS implies that WP:VER covers misrepresenting the contents of a source WP:DIS/Definition of disruptive editing and editors/ :"Cannot satisfy Wikipedia:Verifiability; fails to cite sources, cites unencyclopedic sources, misrepresents reliable sources, or manufactures original research."

However I can find no direct statement on WP:VER adressing "misrepresention of sources,".

This may be why one experienced editor advised me, "In the talk page link you give above, you repeatedly say things like "This discusion is about accurately reflecting the content of sources." This is a weak argument, because it's not directly supported by policy and because one individual doesn't get to dictate what a whole discussion is about."

At present policy is seen to be blank on accurately representing the content of a source. And editors are using this blank space to disrupt and destroy WP. (What confidence can you have in an article in which sources may or may not have been accurately represented? And how can you work collaboratively in such an environment?)

My attempts to understand how to proceed in a real life case of sources being repeatedly misrepresented can be seen at Wikipedia:Editor_assistance: Editor repeatedly misrepresents content of source on BLP and my attempts to understand why this is being classified as "a content dispute" by some can be seen on my talk page. I find it disturbing that a basic like "accurately representing a source" needs to be included in policy. However that seems to be the case. SmithBlue (talk) 05:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

See WP:NOR#Using sources. Relata refero (talk) 12:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Requirement of direct quotation for use of non-English sources

Various wordings

The following is a separate issue outside of the above proposal: cab (talk) 11:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• Though it is not common practise on Wikipedia to support every paraphrase or general statement of fact with a direct quote from the source, other editors may request such a quote using the {{check}} tag; in that case, the editor who originally added the citation should provide the direct quote, to aid verification by users who do not have access to the source in question.

Non-English sources discussion

I don't see any discussion or consensus for this edit [6] which changed the wording of the section in question per above.

I fail to see why we should be flooding Wikipedia with masses of unfree text on tens of thousands of articles on non-Anglosphere authors, movies, musicians, political parties, etc. as would be required by this way of doing things, nor do I understand what benefit it brings; if you can read the language of the non-English source, you can certainly find the quote which supports a certain sentence (except in contentious cases), and if you can't read the language of the source, then a quote doesn't help you anyway. cab (talk) 04:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest the following above wording instead. Comments? cab (talk) 04:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC) (modified cab (talk) 04:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)) (refactored cab (talk) 09:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC))

if you can't read the language of the source, then a quote doesn't help you anyway Well, on the other hand, it could help the person reading it to ask a trusted source whether the translation is true to the original text, or at least find out with the help of an online translator. Not many English-speaking Wikipedians will necessarily have access to non-English language sources. If #2 asks editors to provide an original quotation in a footnote, I don't see why not do it for #3 as well. The English citation for the latter would be a paraphrase after all, not a word-for-word translation. — Zerida ☥ 05:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Many Wikipedians won't have access to just about any kind of source you can think of, which has nothing to do with the language, but the location of publication, the cost of obtaining it, etc. But we don't require that quotes be given in those cases. Don't see what's so special about non-English sources that requires us to pollute articles with a lot of unfree text to support non-contentious statements, especially where the original source is online in the first place, but also in general when we're talking about a recently published book or periodical you could get through inter-library loan. cab (talk) 01:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

At least in the first case they don't have much of an excuse, but it's not uncommon for editors to request quotations on the talk page for especially inaccessible sources. The ^{verification needed} tag is for this. Of course, if the non-English source is available online, then a link is all that's needed in the footnote. I personally do that quite frequently. If not accessible online, I do think it's a nice addition to have a small quote for the translation or the paraphrased one. The majority of cases will probably end up without a quotation, but I feel that we need a specification that requires editors to supply a non-English quotation if requested. — Zerida ☥ 03:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well sure, but as you say, we already have a way for people to request a direct quotation in the cases where it's desired. I changed my suggested text to emphasise that some editors might ask for a direct quotation to support a paraphrase, but I don't see that it needs to be made pre-emptively mandatory in the majority of cases where no one actually asked for it. cab (talk) 04:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I can agree that "it is normally not necessary". If WP:V is devised to make information on Wiki verifiable, I'd say we need more stipulation to ensure that translated text and paraphrases of translated text are indeed verifiable. Editors for example should be able to remove any unverified paraphrases of translated text after a request for a quotation has been made and not answered. — Zerida ☥ 04:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I changed this to "It is not common practise on Wikipedia", which I think can hardly be contested. (Count how many times the "quote" parameter ever gets used on all the citation templates.) Translated text is verifiable by an uninvolved person in the relevent babel category. I still don't see that the issue of quotation is specific to non-English sources; all these argument apply equally to the idea that we need more stipulation in general to ensure material is verifiable even when sources disappear. It's not just non-English websites which are increasingly opting out of web archiving and whatnot. cab (talk) 05:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget to account for how hard it can be to find a replacement source for a non-English site when a weblink goes dead if you don't have some of the original wording. Just a thought. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Internet Archive will still cache older copies of non-English web sites, but you're right, and another reason to have those quotes handy. — Zerida ☥ 04:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

More and more sources (particularly news sources) are opting out of the internet archive with robots that prevent archival. When I have to search for something in Spanish, even though I speak Spanish, it's very hard for me to find text if I don't have original wording. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Why is this any different from the case of English websites going dead? Bikasuishin (talk) 10:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Oppose because of systemic bias. --Kaypoh (talk) 08:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Er, we're trying to come up with a policy, not do a straw poll yet. Do you have any suggestions about how the section in question should be worded? cab (talk) 08:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

If you discourage and make it more difficult to use sources in other languages, you are making the problem of systemic bias worse, because there are many good sources in other languages, about things in other countries. So I oppose this. --Kaypoh (talk) 10:10, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur. We certainly don't need to make it harder for editors to contribute to articles about non-anglophone cultures or to bring a non-anglophone perspective to existing articles. I don't see any problem with the original wording. Bikasuishin (talk) 10:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The existing language is quite restrictive about how sources in other languages should be used. I proposed loosening it. You oppose that too? Do you have an alternative proposal? Simply saying "oppose", "oppose" means we don't get anywhere and it remains the way it is. cab (talk) 10:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I assume Kaypoh meant "revert" rather than "oppose", and I happen to agree. It's not necessary to specifically point at the {{check}} tag for non-English sources. Bikasuishin (talk) 10:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay; but personally, I found the original (green) wording just as bad because it kept going on and on about "translation". 99% of the time we're referencing non-English sources, it's not to give a direct quote, it's to support a normal sentence like "so and so went to ABC School and graduated in 1999". So when some people mistakenly believe non-English sources aren't allowed at all, I point them to that policy section, and then they think it means that we have to translate every non-English source we use. cab (talk) 11:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I like your amended version better. Bikasuishin (talk) 11:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with cab that there's no fundamental difference between english & other sources. Other things being equal, we prefer more accessible to less accessible sources. This includes both language & rarity.

Another point here. Some foreign languages use quite exotic characters, which some people may have difficulty inputting on the computers they use. Peter jackson (talk) 11:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I prefer cab's version. It is more feasible, I think, even still tedious. Practically the proposed (and now argued) version seems to make it impossible any translation from other language Wikipedias, I'm afraid (already the content of the article was paraphrased, without citation of the original, so the requirement cannot be fulfilled). --Aphaia (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I have made the change described above [7]. Please give some alternative language if you have any objections. Thanks, cab (talk) 03:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The whole point of the revisions I am trying to make is to avoid mixing two issues: normal inline citation of non-English sources, and giving translations of direct quotes as part of the article body (a tiny minority of all uses). I can quote real examples of people demanding translations and direct quotations from sources to support regular, uncontroversial article content if you don't believe this is confusing. cab (talk) 08:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I still maintain that this shouldn't be viewed as a problem. If you can access a source that others who don't speak the language cannot, editors should be able to verify the material through a quotation, at the very least on the talk page when requested. This allows editors to remove unverified material, particularly when it involves muddier issues like BLP. The question of what constitutes "controversial" can vary in these cases. I do object to the last modification you made, which is a significant and sudden alteration from the initial proposal that had received consensus. The last version suggests that editors are not really allowed to translate material from non-English sources, which is not policy, and that they can basically ignore requests for verification if they simply include a footnote (unless, I guess, it's on the internet). Frankly, I think the policy is better off not saying anything about non-English sources than leaving it open to these kinds of interpretations. However, WP:V assumes a degree of reliability that would not necessarily apply to sources from different countries, and often don't, so we do need something that covers non-English sources and still make them verifiable. — Zerida ☥ 23:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Zerida et alli. To me, this is all a matter of "style" or "citation design" and ongoing discussion- a key point. In books on history, one has to provide their sources and that is the way it should be done academically. Many times, direct translation of the original text(s) are not given as it would make for one ugly, confusing textbook. Usually, one cannot directly discuss the citation with the author, but only try to write an opposing viewpoint to deaf ears. If the guideline is there and a time where questionable content arises, the rule can then be summoned up to solve the matter. If the resource seems good or a reasonable attempt at a resource and some citation is provided and there is no debate, then let it be (I believe this happens naturally on the Wiki). Once the resource is cited, it is usually up to the reader to track it down- at their own time and "expense". If the reader does this, finds that the article has misquoted or misled, then it can be debated. If a reader has opposing content in English, then the foreign language and English versions can somehow be meshed or we can have a famous edit war (which is interesting, although lame). The intent of the guidelines should be just that- guidelines. That seems to work best because on Wikipedia we can edit, change, author, expand and fact debate in "real time". If a resource is called into question, or debated...it is reasonable that a translation of the resource to be given in order to back it up. The wording in the original article is rather vague and it does seem that everything has to be translated- maybe that could be cleaned up. Maybe make it "if facts are debated" or something similar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mekugi (talk • contribs) 10:39, 9 March 2008

Research Department: Web's Largest Free Law Library Opens to the Public

In a recent blurb in Fox News it was noted that a company called Fastcase has inaugurated the Public Library of Law ( www.plol.org ), which is a free online legal research site. Moreover, Harvard University will soon begin posting on the internet, free of charge, research and articles produced by faculty. Harvard Office of Scholarly Communication to handle this project and Harvard expects the technical work to set this up to be completed by April 1st . David Shankbone 15:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Not impressed. It will take decades for such databases to catch up with the level of sophistication and depth of private databases such as LexisNexis and Westlaw. Every law school student soon grows accustomed to the convenience of accessing the Lexis ALLCASES file and in less than 20 seconds, running a single text query across every American case ever published, from the early 1700s to yesterday evening. Plus there are services like Shepard's Citators and KeyCite which the open-source databases simply can't match yet. --Coolcaesar (talk) 04:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

As a legal database it is not much to write home about... but as a research database for use on Wikipeida it is. There has been a lot of debate as to whether Lexus/Nexis and Westlaw are to be considered reliable sources (due to the fact that you need to pay to access them). There will be no doubts about this site. Blueboar (talk) 05:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course they were RSs--inconvenient though they were--but it is naturally preferable to use a free source when it is available, and we should at some point start tryingto change the existing links. There are printed sources also, & most large public libraries have them for the US and their state. shepherds is still useful in print if you dont need last weeks.

As for Harvard, accumulating significant content will take years and years--and from a single university. Alternative approaches, like pubmedcentral, make everything in the subject available, though sometimes after a time delay. DGG (talk) 20:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Mailing lists as sources

The current policy says:

self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable.

Does that include archives of mailing lists?

Recently i have been involved in several notability and verifiability discussions about constructed languages. If you are curious, see:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kēlen (2nd nomination) (delete)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Slovio (2nd nomination) (delete)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lingua Franca Nova (no consensus)

A repeating argument in these discussions is that constructed languages is a modern art form, and that it exists mostly on mailing lists and therefore mailing lists are acceptable sources for establishing notability and verifiability.

I claim that mailing list archives are not very different from blogs, forums and open wikis, at least from the technical point of view. A mailing list can be setup for free and content can be submitted by essentially anyone; usually such mailing list aren't even moderated as Wikipedia is. Also the count of users of the mailing list is often used to demonstrate notability of a subject; i claim that this is not enough, because the mere count of users can be exaggerated by the use of socks, spam bots, etc. (I am not saying that proponents of conlanging do that on purpose. Spam bots don't care which mailing list they spam, and socks can be created by trolls that don't represent the serious people involved with the language.)

This topic is related not just to constructed languages. A mailing list can be a source of information about a free software project. That's the case with Perl 6 and a number of related articles. This is a topic in which i have a lot of interest; it is notable, because it has also been covered by many other mainstream publication, but the Perl 6 mailing lists are used as sources for the information in the article; doesn't that contradict the policy here?

I don't think that cold, hard rules can be established about this, but in any case mailing lists should be mentioned as a problematic source. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Unless they can be independantly verified... I would not consider them reliable. Blueboar (talk) 16:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree in general, but this is a problem that keeps cropping up, namely where most of a certain topic is discussed in media we find unacceptable e.g. mailing lists, personal websites, or Usenet. I think at some point we're going to have to grasp the nettle, because what's happening is that people are ignoring this policy and just getting on with writing articles. The policy does need to be descriptive as well as prescriptive. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 18:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I don't want to say this, but it is my personal opinion that certain mailing lists, like certain moderated usent groups, are reliable sources for certain issues. This is a long-standing problem in SF-related articles. Relata refero (talk) 18:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a long-standing problem in several areas, particularly pop culture, but also in Scientology, where a lot of the criticism is or was on Usenet. When we were writing ATT, we tried to add an exception to the normal rules for certain subjects, specifically for those that tend only to be discussed in sources we would otherwise regard as unreliable. I tried to introduce it here once too, but was opposed. I do think it's an area we need to address. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 18:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I just looked up the discussion in case it's helpful here. It's at Wikipedia talk:Attribution/popculture. The version of the exception clause that I preferred was something like:

Some articles on popular culture and fiction rely on self-published materials on bulletin boards, blogs, Usenet, and fansites, because few other sources exist for them. In such cases, the material used must have been posted by named, or well-known pseudonymous, individuals with a known expertise in the area, although not necessarily professional expertise. Anonymous posts should never be used. If in doubt about how to use a source in this area, consult the relevant WikiProjects for advice. Subject areas well-covered by reliable sources, such as science, medicine, history, politics, and current affairs, are excluded from this provision.

Every time I've tried to raise this, people have squealed for fear of opening the floodgates, and I can understand that, but I still think we need something like it. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 18:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you start by writing up a something as an essay that we can slowly start using as a reference, to show people how it might apply? Relata refero (talk) 19:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the right person to do that, because I don't edit in these areas myself, so I really don't understand the extent of what's needed. The ones who do edit those subject areas tend simply to ignore this policy, as far as I can tell. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have the link to the ATT discussion now, so I can link to the arguments there if something comes up, and we can see what develops. Relata refero (talk) 19:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

This FAC provides the starting point for crafting wording for an exception. It was decided in this case that the most reliable (and professional) sources in that industry were bloggers, and that was the main medium in which the most knowledgeable experts published. This example allows discussion of professional sources, different than, say, comic books or Pokemon or whatever. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I saw a lot of pop culture lists when I regularly reviewed FLCs. It is perfectly possible to write a FL without relying on self published material and I'm not aware of any FLs that did so. By allowing such material, you might as well throw away WP:V for those articles IMO. It is ridiculously easy to create a blog or geocities web site--no harder than creating a Wikipedia account. Some of these sites look really professional, until you read the About page and discover it is just a couple of students mucking about in their evenings (and who probably also edit Wikipedia). Pop culture wikiprojects don't tend to be staffed by sages and may claim XYZ is has "known expertise in this area" when in fact XYZ hasn't left high school. Our sources should be written by folk who's day job is affected by their reputation for writing reliable and professional material. Such self-published material is also highly likely to be copied off Wikipedia in the first place. That's not to say there aren't a few WP:IAR cases, as Sandy suggests. But I'm not convinced we need to seriously weaken policy in order to accommodate this stuff. Remember that "pop culture and fiction" are about 90% of Wikipedia. Colin°^Talk 23:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

That might mean that about 90 percent of Wikipedia is having to ignore this policy. Phil Sandifer has made some good points about this. He specializes in comic studies, and much of the source material is apparently in fanzines and the like. People have made the same point about Scientology articles -- that most of the criticism, including the amateur expert criticism, is on Usenet or self-published sites. Other examples given during earlier discussions are stamp collecting and things like quilt making. I think so long as you write into any exception that it doesn't apply to science, history, politics etc, it'd liberate the areas that need it without affecting the ones that attract the cranks. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

constructed languages is a modern art form, and that it exists mostly on mailing lists and therefore mailing lists are acceptable sources for establishing notability and verifiability. - What concerns me about this statement is that it comes perilously close to original research - that is, using mailing lists as primary sources, or, if you will, as examples to prove a particular argument. But we have no idea if any particular mailing list is widely read, or the extent to which a particular posting is truly representative. That's quite different than saying "Oh, widely recognized expert X said ABC on this mailing list". In the latter case, this is close to what we allow now - if a blog contains a posting by an expert on a given topic, then it's an acceptable source. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 02:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

This issue is perennially raised and I agree it's not going away anytime soon. However, I strongly disagree with any liberalization of sourcing requirements. There are a number of common poor practices that are not enshrined in policy (and in fact, discouraged or prohibited by policy), so I am unconvinced of arguments stating policy should conform to the more liberal sourcing practices based on the descriptive approach to policy building. (I just don't see the need for looser requirements and am not at all convinced it's a tolerable practice, let alone a good practice that should be documented in policy.) I have yet to be presented with an instance where such sources are actually needed, outside of topics such as those solely notable for being seen as notable in Usenet (which probably don't belong here). In the examples of both constructed languages and SEO above, there are plenty of standard reliable references available on such topics. For example, SEO is very widely published about in both mass market books and tech periodicals. From my perspective, the argument for greater permissibility in forum/mailing list/self-published circumstances is usually grounded in an argument that there would be no sources otherwise (in which case, we shouldn't have an article on it) or that the online sources are easier to access (an argument of which I possess a dim view). Another common argument is that proper sources don't exist (often raised for programming languages such as PHP and pop culture such as television episodes), but as I mentioned above, I have yet to encounter a situation where normal reliable sources are lacking. (Tackling my examples, programming languages have numerous books and periodicals discussing them, and even individual television episodes are covered by a wide variety of entertainment periodicals and critics.) Just some thoughts. *hands out grains of salt* Vassyana (talk) 04:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I know in my part of librarianship the main information sources have long been informal mailing lists, with the formal peer reviewed publications not really being taken very seriously, except by the library school faculty who are required to publish there. I think this is the case in many technical subjects. But this does amount to a certain abandonment of the concept of peer-review and editorial control --the user is expected to evaluate the material without it. As this spreads in the world we will have to revise how we do things, or we will progressively be relying on out of date material. DGG (talk) 06:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't necessarily believe that a trend away from print into new media will necessitate much alteration to the verifiability policy. Open journals and internet library access are on the rise. There's no noticeable trend away from the publishing=academic cred model in the public, commercial or (more importantly) academic sectors. Self-published sources from established experts (in blogs, university department websites, etc) are already held to be generally acceptable on wiki. At worst, we may eventually need to soften/remove the caution about using such materials from well-regarded experts. Vassyana (talk) 06:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

You're almost certainly mistaken. If you hop over and ask the people at Making light or the chaps at the Google features working group what should be used as reliable sources, they aren't going to agree with you at all. I don't think rigidity helps us here.

And you're also absolutely wrong that SPS from established sources are held to be "generally acceptable". I don't know which academic areas you're talking about, but its certainly not true of the ones I know well. Relata refero (talk) 07:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I only meant that SPS from established experts are generally acceptable on wiki. (I'm adding a bracket note to the post to prevent further confusion.) Vassyana (talk) 17:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Why wouldn't a post in a mailing list from a recognised authority on a subject be acceptable? I belong to a cartography mailing list, for instance, and although I'm no experts some of the posters are extremely well known experts in the field with loads of credentials. Shouldn't that be acceptable?--Dougweller (talk) 10:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not prepared or disposed to argue this point, but I have been involved in a few mailing-list and usenet newsgroup discussions where doubt emerged (in some cases not quickly) about whether persons involved in the discussions were impostors. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 11:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Doug, yes, we can use self-published posts — on mailing lists or elsewhere — from recognized authorities, so long as there's no serious reason to doubt who wrote it. See WP:SPS: "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 18:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Self-published sources are acceptable to source non-contentious information ( the rest of the policy after "largely not acceptable" goes on to list exceptions to that; the Perl mailing lists you mentioned up top are a good example of when this is acceptable), but they do not establish notability. Squidfryerchef (talk) 22:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I continue to have serious reservations about using mailing lists as reliable sources. To start carving out exceptions to a general rule is a very bad idea... Slippery slope and all that... I do understand that in some specific situations and articles they might be reliable and desirable... but that is why we have WP:IAR. I just don't see the need to modify the policy to account for about a few, relatively rare cases. Blueboar (talk) 22:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no slippery slope, those kinds of sources have been used since the beginning of WP, and only in the past couple of years have they come under fire, and nobody's proposing changing the policy. We also don't "have" WP:IAR, which is usually taken as an editor "crying uncle" at this point. The more important idea is recognizing that the "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" rule has a flip side. Squidfryerchef (talk) 23:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I would think (as a trivial example) that something like this archived perl FAQ post would not be seriously challenged. Yet in a similar discussion surrounding the notability and reliability of Haze Gray and Underway, the home of the sci.military.naval FAQ, was recently contested. See Talk:Haze gray and underway. This is troubling in no small part because it is a rich repository of World War I naval photographs.LeadSongDog (talk) 23:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Since policy is descriptive rather than prescriptive, nothing is ever prohibited "by policy". The fact is, people ARE using mailing lists, etc. as sources for these articles. Since, on Wikipedia, "policy" merely reflects what's already happening, it's a no-brainer that the "policy" page needs to be modified to reflect that. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 22:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Wait, are you suggesting that policy be modified to make permissible whatever people happen to be doing at the moment? In that case, policies would be utterly useless...Someguy1221 (talk) 23:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, Kmweber self-describes as Libertarian. That said, the above would seem to be necessarily his position ;/) LeadSongDog (talk) 01:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

What you and a lot of others don't get is that that's precisely how "policy" is supposed to work on Wikipedia, as anyone who's been around long enough can tell you. The choice of the word "policy" for these was unfortunate, as people tend to become confused (as you have) and think it means what it does everywhere else. But it doesn't. On Wikipedia, "policy" is anything but prescriptive; it merely describes what people are already generally doing. That's all it does. And yes, I'm a Libertarian, but really, theories of government do not apply to the operations of a private organization such as Wikipedia. You'll be surprised how strict I am with my band kids. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 03:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly concur with the positions carefully expressed by Amir E. Aharoni, Blueboar, SlimVirgin, and LeadSongDog, and oppose the positions expressed by Dougweller and Kurt Weber. Kurt, your first recorded edit was apparently 7 May 2004, while mine was 22 August 2004, so we are both relatively experienced editors here. You should be well aware that most of the Arbitration Committee disagrees with your position and has interpreted policies as binding on numerous occasions to ban or restrict editors who were essentially submitting garbage to the encyclopedia (and creating more of a mess for everyone else to clean up). This goes back to the whole problem expressed by the famous New Yorker cartoon, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."--Coolcaesar (talk) 04:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the current policy, and think that mailing lists are excluded by that policy as they are self-published. For example the Dino Mailing List contains many posts from serious authorities like Tom Holtz and Ken Carpenter, but also many from arm-chair paleontologists; some posts from arm-chair paleontologists can only be described as fanciful; and even a few of the posts from serious authorities are musings or running an idea up the flagpole (a legimate part of the process of forming hypotheses). In addition mailing lists (including Dino Mailing List) tend to attract people of similar views, and can therefore be very hostile about differing views. Dino Mailing List is used as a "sandpit" by some serious authorities, but I wouldn't use it as a source in a Wikipedia article. For the same reasons I would exclude any other mailing list, although I'm happy to use mailing lists as pointers to reliable sources such as new peer-reviewed articles. Philcha (talk) 12:06, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

What is wrong with using it to quote Ken Carpenter, for instance? And on the lists I have in mind, there is no question as to the identity of the well known posters, that is just not a problem.--Doug Weller (talk) 13:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

And since I've just been talking to Peter T Daniels on Usenet about his Wikipedia entry, that reminds me -- he's a world class expert on writing systems, why can't I quote something he says on UseNet or on a mailing list? So long as they can be accessed on the Internet, that is.--Doug Weller (talk) 17:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose one can always invoke WP:IGNORE in special cases, although that might mean having to defend the edit afterwards. There are of course some cases that blur the lines. A newspaper of record usually has on its website a way to comment on published articles. While the paper is the publisher, there is little if any editorial control of the comments made and the author attributions are essentially unverifiable. Comments in a blog may trigger real-world discussions that make it into dino-media. I rather like the idea of using pageranking as a less subjective measure, but only for statements that have no scandal factor, which still distorts pagerank.LeadSongDog (talk) 17:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Citing Product as a Reference

Say for instance I am editing a page about a video game, is it considered legitimate to cite the game itself as a source? In particular, the page about cultural differences between eastern and western video games. I would like to cite specific games where different plot elements are used, but wasn't sure if they were considered a primary source or not one at all.

Thanks. Fllmtlchcb (talk) 00:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Games should only be cited in articles about themselves, for the purpose of providing only basic description about themselves. Citing several games to compare cultural differences would constitute original research, and you should instead stick to what secondary sources say on the subject. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand saying a certain game is an example of an idea or concept without a citation is OR. I am wondering if it is considered OR to say that a particular game specifically contains a certain plot element would be considered OR, because the game as a reference source can verify any claims made about it. An example of this would be saying that a main character dies before the climax in Final Fantasy 7 (it's 10 years old, so I figure that's a well known spoiler). Fllmtlchcb (talk) 05:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you could find a secondary source on that. The problem with directly citing primary sources is that it erroneously suggests that your own interpretation of them is the truth. We cite primary sources when we quote them, but not for interpretations of fictional events. For that we need a secondary source, like a review or a published article.

Given the popularity of FF7 it shouldn't be too hard to find some sort of coverage of that plot element -- either a review, or possibly even an academic publication. --FOo (talk) 05:59, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

FF7 would be simple to find a person's review of to cover the content of the game, which makes it a bad example in hindsight. Rarer, more obscure games like Kuon for the Playstation 2 would not be as easy to find sources for, but greatly shows the different cultural themes in video games made by eastern developers. Unless I write a review of the game myself and quote that as a secondary source (which is self-serving and unreliable), then there is no way for me to find information pertaining to the game at hand. It would be easy to apply the 'ignore all rules' rule, but I don't think it would do Wikipedia good to actually do that. In fact, Kuon doesn't even have a page on wikipedia because of its obscurity. Fllmtlchcb (talk) 06:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

This is really a WP:NOR question... As long as you are stick to a purely discriptive comment about the plot line of the game, you can cite the game itself... this is similar to how we treat any creative work, such as TV shows, Books, Movies etc. The key is to avoid any analitical comments or statements of conclusion based upon the game play. So... while you could say, for example, that "Character A dies before reaching the end of the game", but you could not discuss the impact that that death has on the game play. For that you would need a secondary source. Blueboar (talk) 15:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. This is the answer that I was looking for. Fllmtlchcb (talk) 18:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

If it's in the manual, then it's not OR and you can cite the game as its own reference. Ditto anything that's explicitly said in game screens (e.g. upgrade X costs Y and has effects Z). IMO the same applies to anything that can be directly observed from the game screens, e.g. "it takes 10 screens to set up a game of Space Empires III". After that it starts to become less clear. I think that elementary deductions are OK, e.g. if upgrade A is a prerequsite for upgrade B then the total cost of getting to B is the cost of A + the cost of B; but I've met people who disagree. IMO without a citation "a main character dies before the climax in Final Fantasy 7" would be OR, because to prove it you have to disassemble the game and then enumerate all possible paths through it. Philcha (talk) 00:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

This too is a WP:NOR issue, but basic arithmetic is clearly exempt, as anyone can easily replicate it. The key is that the inputs to the calculations must be identified. We do this all the time in unit conversions, even using templates for it, eg. The Indy 500 is a 500-mile (805 km) race.LeadSongDog (talk) 17:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Official Game Forums

I understand that we should not use the game forums as a source, however... what if it is all we have? Case in point, Puzzle Pirates. The administrators and game creators regularly add information to the forums regarding what is coming out and what is new. We also have "PoEmail" updates which inform the community of news, however those things are not held in a repository and there is no "news" section of their website where we can cite information. This is a problem when trying to cite information because the game is not that widely known so there are not many (if any) legit third party articles abound. I'm going to post a notice about this converstaion on the YPP talk page so that others can come over and see what is said. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 15:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

If the game is "not that widely known" to the point that the only place that mentions news about it is the game forum... I have to wonder whether it is notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. In any case... the solution is to wait... until reliable third party sources (such as industry magazines, review websites, etc.) report on the information. Blueboar (talk) 15:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

It has approx. 3 million people playing, however that is spread out over the entire world... so in a sense, its not that widely known. Its not so much that the only news is in the forum, as thats the place where the producers decided to put it. Also, its been around for quite a few years now, people just havent picked it up to discuss the newest additions. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 15:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

We still have to wait until a reliable source picks up on the information. You might consider contacting the producers, and explain to them that if they want the latest information about their game to be mentioned in Wikipedia (which they probably would), they will have to release the information in a different way. It is not up to us to bend our rules so that new information about a game can be mentioned. Blueboar (talk) 16:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh I completely agree, I just wanted input. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 16:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

A question

There's a discussion going on, where a secondary makes a claim about something said in a primary source. The primary source is readily available, and it seems obvious that the statement attributed to the primary by the secondary is simply not in the primary. Does WP:V require that the seemingly faulty claim stay simply because it is verifiable, or does the faulty claim make the secondary source an unreliable source? Murderbike (talk) 18:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Any rule can be ignored if enforcing it would hurt Wikipedia (in this case, by allowing obviously false information to remain in an article). I've re