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Really, I find that Light current's view is not so much in opposition with what we are doing. Please read the section #The role of truth in WP policy. --Lumière 07:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Lumiere, perhaps this discussion could be continued on a subpage? I've set one up at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/truth in case anyone would like to do that. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but the section #The role of truth in WP policy should stay here because I think it is interesting for every one. I will copy, not cut and paste, the part that I think is useful. Others could do the same. --Lumière 07:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Is anyone who disagrees with the status quo a TROLL?--Light current 05:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 The role of truth in WP policy 2 Self-published sources as sources on themselves 3 Subpage about the value of truth (as a complement). 4 Secreting 5 Why negation of truth? 6 PolicY 7 The current policy does not use truth at all as a threshold, even though it should. 8 This is trolling 9 Reply to Lumiere 10 Tabloids 11 Your actions on Wikipedia:Verifiability 12 Wheel Warring 13 Regarding troll food 14 "Local interest" articles 15 Provisional Sources 16 Radio interview 17 question about well known (by some) facts 18 So where are we at 19 Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 20 Logic and verifiability 20.1 logic, NOR, verifiability: retake 21 Reputable sources 22 Propaganda websites as sources 23 Over-referencing 24 Under-referencing: Painting the fence white 25 Verifying assertions about the content of movies? 26 Citing sources 27 yes or no question 28 To Thivierr on Citing sources 29 Bootstrapping 30 Strongly Disagree with Jguk's version 31 Clarification of "we need the three policies" 32 NY Times Example 33 Clarifying what is a primary source 34 Guilt by association

The role of truth in WP policy

DO NOT REMOVE THIS SECTION EVEN IF IT DISTURBS YOU.

Light current, I have a few related questions for you. Is it that you carefully looked at the policy itself, i.e., the rules that must be used to resolve disputes and be as much as possible interpreted in the sameway by all kind of editors, and you feel that these rules are not very good? Or is it that you find that the way the policy is presented is not very good? I personally have a problem with both aspects, but I try to work with people to improve the situation. Perhaps, my suggestion would be to separate these two aspects and try to show some appreciation for an attempt to have practical rules to obtain a content of good quality in Wikipedia. I don't think the current attempt is stupid, but it can be improved. If you think that this rule aspect per se, not the presentation in terms of no truth, etc., is not good at all, could you explain why? --Lumière 01:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Im not clear which policy you are referring to. Is it the WP:CIVIL or something else?--Light current 01:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I am referring to the content policies WP:verifiability, WP:neutral point of view and WP:No original research. Wow, I see that you did not get my paragraph at all. Can you read it again and see if you understand it better?

BTW, I read the paragraph again myself and I can see that your interpretation makes sense, especially in the context of all these issues with persons instead of Wikipedia contents just above. I was not interested in these issues at all. I am interested in the policies that deal with the content of Wikipedia. --Lumière 02:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I have not looked that carefully at the WP:verifiability policy. I didnt need to, as the opening sentence was enough to raise very strong feelings (ie the bit about V NOT T). This to me is just not right that we should blatantly be pushing things that are not true without saying so or at least providing a substantial warning. So, I feel this policy should be changed to say True (as far as we know) AND verifiable. So its the rule thats wrong, not the presentation. Hope that explains my position.--Light current 02:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but what is the actual rule that you propose for the T part. Is your rule "any one that thinks something is not true can delete it, and no one can oppose to it". That seems no good. Too much valid information can be suppressed. Or perhaps it is "if a consensus amongst the editors consider that something is not true, then they should not include it, even if it is verifiable." You know what, I like this last rule. I see no problem with it in practice. In fact, even if it is not formulated in the policy, I think it is applied in practice. On the other hand, I would not accept the converse: "if a consensus amongst the editors consider that something is true, then they can include it, even if it is not verifiable." The problem with this last rule is that consensus are local amongst a few editors. Was this the only issue that did bother you? --Lumière 02:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

ie What is the definition of truth? Working.....please wait

First part answer:

"if a consensus amongst the editors consider that something is not true as far as they have ascertained to the best of their endeavours, then:

• they should not include it, even if it is verifiable OR
• it should be indicated in the article that it is not thought to be true (but not necesarily thought that it is not :true either. ie presented in a reported manner. (It is said by many/some that so&so is a raving...)

What I don't like is that the second option can be used to accept for inclusion about anything inside an article on a given topic. This is not respectful for the topic. To improve the quality of Wikipedia would you accept

"if a consensus amongst the editors consider that something is not true as far as they have ascertained to the best of their endeavours, then:

• they should not include it, even if it respects all other requirements of WP policy OR
• if it respects all other requirements of WP, they can include it, but it should be indicated in the article that it is not thought to be true (but not necesarily thought that it is not :true either. ie presented in a reported manner. (It is said by many/some that so&so is a raving...)

This is more safe to preserve the quality, but it does suppress more information. --Lumière 03:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes well that fits in with my exclusionist policy nicely!--Light current 03:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Just realized that there is still a problem with this rule. We are talking about a content that was published in a reputable source. The second option of this rule could be used by a few editors to discredit this publication, just because of their personal bias. Of course, you say in your rule that they must be experts, etc. but who judge that? This is why you were told that we cannot do that because of the no original research policy: what is original research is the critic of the content, even if it is just a short notice. If these experts believe that the content is not true, they only have to publish a paper about it, say in the same journal. Then, they will be able to cite this publication in the article. This is perfectly in accord with WP policy, and even strongly encouraged. --Lumière 03:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

In other words, we should apply your excellent suppression principle to the critic of the article as well. Who judge of the truth of this critic? IMO, the safest approach is to remove the second option and let the expert editors use the first option until they have published their critic, and then they can put both the content that they believe is dubious and their published critic as well. --Lumière 04:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes your formulation looks promising. I just have some wording changes to suggest.

"if there is a consensus amongst the editors that something is not true as far as they have ascertained to the best of their endeavours, then:

• they should not include it, even if it complies with all other requirements of WP policy

OR

• if it complies with all other requirements of WP, they can include it, but it should be indicated in the article that it is not thought to be true (but not necesarily thought that it is not true either. ie presented in a reported manner. (It is said by many/some that so&so is a raving...)

--Light current 04:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I should have said that I have a critic of my version of your proposal. I did not say I had written a new rule. I only wrote a critic of the rule I had written before. The outcome of that critic is the new rule:

"If there is a consensus amongst the editors that something is not true as far as they have ascertained to the best of their endeavours, then they should not include it, even if it complies with all other requirements of WP policy."

No two options anymore. The second option was a problem (see explanation above).

Now working on definition of Truth...this may take some time!--Light current 03:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

--Light current 03:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Absolute truth cannot be known. Truth is a difficult concept (said by Alan Clarke (possibly/probably)).

The definition of truth that must be used is:

:That which is generally accepted to be the correct representation of reality as far as can be known by a collection of editors knowledgeable in the subject in question whether by means of their own knowledge and/or by their researching and agreeing many and varied references which appear to them reliable

This is my first draft of the defn WP should consider using--Light current 03:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It looks nice, but never such a definition can be as useful in practice as a formulation of a rule. For example, I am reading it and I can think of different interpretations in terms of a rule. I am not saying that it is useless. It is less heavy than a rule and will better fit in an introduction. Actually, it looks good. --Lumière 03:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree its not perfect at all. But it is a start. No doubt others will find many faults with it. Thanks for your interest in my concerns.

Well, more precisely how wikipedian editors can verify it in practice? If you only give me a definition, this might not answer the question and nobody will know how to modify the policy (the rules) to please you. --Lumière 03:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Verifying that something is true or correct cannot be done with certainty, but it is better to estimate a probability of correctness than to ignore it completely.--Light current 04:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the addition of the rule

"If a consensus amongst the editors consider that something is not accurate or not fair, then they should not include it, even if it repects all other requirements of WP policy."

requires that we use subjective concepts such as "accurate" and "fair". Nevertheless, it is a rule that can be applied in practice. This shows that those people that argued with you that these concepts could not be part of a policy were simply wrong. --Lumière 03:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

If this is a private discussion, please have it in you talk pages, not here. Thanks.≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

No it is not a private discussion. You should actually try to understand it. --Lumière 07:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

This is either a private discussion, or a monolog. The only thing to learn from this discussion is the ability that some people have of ignoring the understanding developed by the community over years, and the presumptuousness that they know better. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It is, er.., interesting watching two different incarnations of light bat around the concept of truth with each other. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 18:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The truth is hard to accept sometimes. You cannot really give up. Isn't it. --Lumière 18:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Spoken like a true believer. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 19:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Where is the organization behind the belief? Where are the non negotiable principles? Typically, people with a belief feel challenged when alternatives are presented. --Lumière 20:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Please do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. See WP:POINT. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Disrupt Wikipedia? Perhaps you meant to say "Do not disrupt our conviction by expressing your opinion." because I did not even do a single edit in relation to this discussion! I concede that I will not succeed to change your conviction. What is the other issue here? What is your problem? --Lumière 21:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/truth to continue the discussion. --Lumière

Self-published sources as sources on themselves

Can a statement of the form "Mr X has expressed the opinion that President Bush is ..." be accepted for inclusion in an article about Bush and sourced in the website of Mr. X on the basis that telling the opinion of Mr. X is an information about Mr. X? In my opinion, it is safer to clarify this issue. --Lumière 01:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Only if Mr. X is notable, and Mr. X website is a reputable source. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Is there a general consensus on this? Certainly, the concepts of "notable author" and "reputable website" are not mentioned in the section. The concept of website with a notable owner is mentioned in the preceding section, but in this case it is clear that the information must also be sourced in a separate reputable source. So, the simple answer is NO. Right? --Lumière 02:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I, for one, don't know what you mean. Jossi gave you an answer. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 04:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh please, if you don't have the answer, just say nothing. Also, I have the right to check with others if I have a serious doubt about Jossi's answer. --Lumière 04:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

You shouldn't have serious doubt about Jossi's answer, (S)he is correct.--Sean Black ^(talk) 05:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I also find your question confusing. If you mean, can you give a web site as a source for a given statement, the answer is yes, and it doesn't matter who made the website, so long as the website is a reputable/verified source. ··gracefool |☺ 04:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

If you are right, then what exactly is the significance of the sections "Self-published sources as primary sources" and "Self-published sources"? Especially, of the section "Self-published sources"? Give me some sentences that are excluded by these sections (but would be acceptable for inclusion otherwise) and explain why it does not apply to the above sentence. --Lumière 04:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Oups I see that you did not read carefully the question. The question did not say any website, but the website of Mr. X. I think it was clearly mentioned. What you say raises an important issue: What is a reputable website in general? This is not the question here. --Lumière 05:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

In case it is needed, I repeat the simple question: Is a sentence like "Mr. X has expressed the opinion that Bush is ..." acceptable for inclusion in an article about Bush, if the sentence is only sourced in the website of Mr.X? --Lumière 04:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Whether a website is "reputable" is up to community consensus. What this project page says is, don't use a source of dubious/controversial reputation as a third-party source. So if Mr. X's website is a dubious/controversial source, it should only be used in articles about Mr. X. ··gracefool |☺ 05:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I think if someone stands on record as saying something, even if self published on his own website., then this should be admissible in a WP article. After all, this would be almost from the horses mouth itself!--Light current 05:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, it seems that we are not reading the same sections "Self-published sources as primary sources" and "Self-published sources". Sorry, I cannot connect anything that has been said above to these sections. However, I will not go as far as saying that you are all wrong. One explanation is that the sections have been rewritten, and you didn't notice. Read them again. Another explanation is that some have expressed what they think should be the rule, but not what is written in the sections. Perhaps also it will be useful to have more inputs here. --Lumière 05:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Lumiere, please read the policy. Self-published material is not acceptable as a third-party (secondary) source, and that includes personal websites, except where "a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

So, I conclude that the answer is NO! Note that the question say "only sourced in Mr. X website". Therefore, it was not previously published by any third-party publication. --Lumière 05:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It would depend who Mr X was. Read the policy, please. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? My interpretation is that Mr X cannot be the owner of a third-party publication, and this is by definition of third-party. He is the one that has the opinion. A third-party is an independent publisher. I would say that even if Mr. X was by profession a reputable publisher, he would not count as a third-party publisher. If someone has another interpretation, I am curious to see what it is. --Lumière 05:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know whether there's a language problem here or some other, but you've misunderstood the polic, Luminere. I'm sorry I don't have any more time to explain it, but I'd say it's fairly clear to most people. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

You maybe right about the problem of language. Can someone give me what is the definition of "third-party publication" in the above context? I thought that it meant that the publisher is not connected in anyway with the content that is being sourced. --Lumière 05:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Not self-published. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Well! Who is the "self" in self-published here? It must be Mr. X. So, we cannot use the website of Mr. X as a source. Right? --Lumière 06:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes well this shows the ultimate nonsense of the policy of V over T if you cant even quote someone who has said something and also recorded it (wherever). It is certainly verifyable that he has said it if its on his website with his electrinic sig. So whats the problem?? Notice I am not saying that the person should be allowed to self cite on WP, only that other editors should be allowed to cite him a s source.--Light current 05:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Er. No it doesn't. I've read the above section, and it's very confused, but Wikipedia custom, and general common sense agree about this: If someone says something on a website, and we want to say that they said it, we can use the website as evidence that they said what they said. This is not in any dispute, although it seems to be the subject of a considerable amount of confusion. JesseW, the juggling janitor 05:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Not if it's a personal website. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I suppose it would be prudent to make sure it was archived in the Wayback Machine first, but AFAIK, if we are writing an article on someone with a personal website, and something they say on it is relevant to the article, we certainly can quote them, and provide the URL to where they said it on the website as a source. If this is not the case, I'd love to see some examples, etc. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

That's what the policy says. Self-published sources may be used as sources about themselves i.e. as primary sources. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 06:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. So, I'll assume your comment "Not if it's a personal website." was just a mis-reading, only referring to using a personal website as a secondary source, which we both agree is not OK. (Oh, and Sean, I don't mind that you removed my (attempted) humour.) JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure where was the mis-reading. In any case, I read the sections again, and when I look at the context, it seems very much that "third party publication" means that we have an independent publisher, typically a large independent organization. The policy says that self-published sources are fine if the content is about the owner of the source. The example makes it clear: Mr S website can be used as a source in an article about Mr. S ( but not in an article about Mr. Bush.) This part of the section could not have been more clear! --Lumière 06:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not we should change the sections is another issue. Right now, it is more important, IMO, that we agree about what these sections say. Then, it will be easier to discuss possible modifications. --Lumière 05:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, when I read the above, I am not sure that we have a consensus! I quit! Just for a while. --Lumière 06:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Subpage about the value of truth (as a complement).

DO NOT REMOVE. It is not because we have a subpage about the role of truth as a complement to verifiability that we cannot say a word about it here. Just a simple question. Was there a consensus to highlight verifiability, not truth in the first sentence? See Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/truth for more details about this issue. Also, this subpage presents an interesting example of a rule in NPOV that is advocating something related to "truth" as a necessary complement, if we consider that "significance" is related to "truth". They are certainly both very subjective. --Lumière 06:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Secreting

Why is SV trying to hide legit posts away on sub pages that no one will see and erasing other legit posts about the format of the discussion. I wonder if this will end up on a sub page or will it just be archived, or will it be deleted like my other posts on this page? --Light current 07:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Quote from WP guidelines:

Talk page vandalism: Deleting the comments of other users from article Talk pages, or deleting entire sections thereof, is generally considered vandalism. Removing personal attacks is often considered legitimate, and it is considered acceptable to archive an overly long Talk page to a separate file and then remove the text from the main Talk page. The above does not apply to the user's own Talk page, where users generally are permitted to remove outside comments at their discretion.

I wonder if those who, in future, remove/delete posts from this talk page could defend their actions adequately in light of the above guidelines?--Light current 23:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Why negation of truth?

Slim: Why is not sufficient to say just verifyibility?. --Light current 08:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I think I know the answer. It is very simple. It is important for some that the policy does not use truth. They think it is great because in this way the policy relies less on the judgment of the editors. So, they want to inform the readers of this "objective" approach that they consider very fundamental. Of course, the reality is that they are confused. They think that WP policy should not rely on the judgment of the editors, but there exists plenty of WP rules that do rely on the judgement of the editors. For example, in accordance with NPOV, "non significant" views should not be included, and it is explained in the NPOV talk page that the precise meaning of "non significant" depends on the situation and must be determined by the editors. --Lumière 22:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I want to get rid of the impression given in the policy that truth in articles is not at all necessary. Thats why I say: if we cant say verifiable AND true, we should just say verifiable (as I think he policy used to say at one time). At some point in the editing process, the judgement of editors is, of course, going to be required. If not, then a computer could do the whole job of writing the 'pedia!!(eventually)--Light current 23:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I would agree, if it is what you say, that even if the current policy does not explicitly use truth as a criteria, it nevertheless partially remove innaccurate contents, and thus we should not present the opposite impression. I agree that mentioning "not truth" does create the wrong impression and also agree that it is not absolutely necessary to insist on it. It still remains that the sentence is not false: the policy does not use truth. Do you think that it should use truth or is it sufficient that we only remove "not truth" in the formulation? --Lumière 01:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Bon! Ideally I would like to see the word Truth included as a necessariy criterion. However, I would be fairly satisfied if just the not truth was removed from the article opening sentence. It didnt used to have it in, Im sure.--Light current 02:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of my answer to your question to Slim was to present and discuss the perspective of those who really want to keep "not truth". I tought it could be useful. --Lumière 01:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

PolicY

How can this page be WP policy if it changes every 10 mins?--Light current 08:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Light current, you're trolling. If it continues, you may be reported and blocked for disruption. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Defn of trolling: In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who posts rude or offensive messages on the Internet, such as on online discussion forums, to disrupt discussion or to upset its participants. "Troll" can also mean the message itself or be a verb meaning to post such messages. "Trolling" is also commonly used to describe the activity

I dont belive I have posts rude or offensive messages. Anyway, the terms rude and offensive are subjective! Im not trolling. Im trying to improve policy (or at least put it back to what it was). Why is it that only 2 people (you and jossi) can edit this page without getting reverted by admins? BTW does 3RR apply to you too or are you immune? --Light current 08:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The current policy does not use truth at all as a threshold, even though it should.

Whether we like it or not, the current policy does not use truth to filter for inclusion. The purpose of the first sentence is to explain the policy as it is. Therefore, I support that we keep the first sentence with the "not truth", even if it stupid, because this is the situation.

However, I also support that we change this policy to add a very simple rule that uses "truth". This proposed rule is very similar to another rule that uses "significance" instead of "truth". This other rule, which is implicit in the current NPOV policy, says that if the editors agree that something is not significant, they should not include it in the article. If you ask the experts behind NPOV what is the precise meaning of "significant", they simply say that it can be determined amongst the editors. It would make perfect sense that we do the samething: If all the editors agree that something is not true (or say innacurate), they should not include it. What is wrong with this? --Lumière 08:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

At first sight this looks OK to me. I would rather truth not be mentioned at all rather than in a negative context which is why I tried to remove it from the page. It was reverted of course by SV who now seems to be soley in charge of this page.--Light current 08:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

This is trolling

I would urge that the editors who have been asked, multiple times, to cease their excessively volumnious comments on the talk page not be responded to further. There's no need to archive the talk page, but again, there's no need to respond either. The reason that some edits are reverted and others are not, is that some edits have consensus, and others do not. Again, I urge that no one further respond to this. JesseW, the juggling janitor 08:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Copied from Talk User:Jossi

Hi Jossi. I've been watching the WP:V page also, and it's my impression that primarily one user there is being disruptive, Light current. Because of that I'm hesitant to protect the entire page over it. However I did just leave him a message asking him to stop what he's been doing [8] so I'm hopeful he'll listen. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 16:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Please define 'disruptive'--Light current 22:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

What you've been doing: trolling the talk page, and making edits against consensus. I gave you two discrete examples in the message I left for you on your talk page. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 22:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Disruption is not a WP defined word in the sense in which you use itand therfore cannot be used in disciplinary matters because we have no definition of it!!!--Light current 22:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jossi"

This page was last modified 23:37, 7 February 2006. All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License (see Copyrights for details).

Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

"Disruption" is a word defined in an enforcable wikipedia guideline: Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Apart from the explanation of what is meant by disruption in this context, the guideline also contains:

Egregious disruption of any kind is blockable by any administrator — for up to one month in the case of repeat offenses that are highly disruptive.

--Francis Schonken 23:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

THank you for that link and your explanatory additions. I shall study them avidly--Light current 23:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Reply to Lumiere

Well any changes we try to make are immediately reverted by the admins and if you try to change them back you get accused of 3RR or trolling. I have tried to change the page for the better a number of times and Im in danger of being blocked again for 2 helpful changes I made (This is called trolling if you put something on the page that an admin doesnt like). So I cant really make any other changes to the page myself today, but others could.

I dont see what can be done except to accept that WP policy is not made by the users but by one or two admins.--Light current 08:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, they are just very attached to the policy, like if it was the bible! I feel as if we should not touch it until after we become members of the order! They won't like it otherwise. They barely tolerate us in the talk page. --Lumière 08:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely!. Its called paranoia!--Light current 08:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Im not sure if they are attached to the policy, because some admins keep changing it on an hourly basis. One thing is certain: they dont want any one else interfering in the policy or even suggesting its partial stupidity - Sacre Bleu! (pardon my French!)--Light current 22:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Tabloids

I ve removed the reference to tabloids because its out of date and is not NPOV. ie it presents the view that tabloids are unreliable- most are reputable these days. Also mentioning a specific newspaper The Sun and casting doubt on its reliability is again POV but Ive left that for the moment.--Light current 14:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I would not use a newspaper to source a scientific content, but it might be fine for some other contents. The main issue is the last part. A criticism of The Sun should be notable and well sourced. Otherwise, if it is not notable it is POV and if it not well sourced it qualifies as original research, a research on quality of newspapers. Moreover, and perhaps more importantly, a criticism of the sources sounds like totally off topic and inadequate in an encyclopedia article. What about the sources that are used to support this criticism. If these sources are also tabloids, should we also critic them, and so on. --Lumière 22:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

So after the recent revert of my edit regarding Tabloid Press, we can safely say that this page continues to breach WP policy on NPOV- (maybe others too- I havent studied it in detail yet) with the full blessing of certain admins/editors--Light current 22:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Moved here from my talk so all can see what admins are up to:

Your actions on Wikipedia:Verifiability

Please stop what you're doing to this policy page. Use the talk page and discuss the issue if you like, but stop making what are essentially vandalizing edits to modify longstanding consensus on this important policy page. You're welcome to participate in a less disruptive manner, particularly on the talk page, but if you don't stop these sorts of edits to the article itself [1] [2], I won't hesitate to block you temporarily for vandalism and disruption. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 16:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

You have been asked not to feed th Trolls- but you ignore this request and continue to stir up and worsen bad feelings. You assume bad faith on my part. Thats a mistake on your part. These were perfectly valid edits. They are certainly not Vandalism.

It seems any admin can make whatever changes (s)he likes without any consensus or discussion, but a simple user is just blocked or threatened with blocking. Do you like wielding the big stick to batter everyone who disagrees with you into submission? This is how it starts: supression of truth and opinion. It's happened so many times in history.

Even my and other peoples posts on the talk Wikipedia:Verifiability page are being deleted or moved into backwaters. THis could be called vandalism or disruption, but I suppose its called something else when admins do it. So how to get proper discussion on these matters? I can see that both I and User:Lumiere have touched some raw nerves here, I unwittingly. I certainly did not expexct such vicious reaction to my suggestions and edits. As I said before this is a sign of paranoia and this particular group of admins editng this page are showing classic traits of dictatorship. Is that really the intention of WP? These admin actions are now really starting to look foolish.

BTW would you care to define the word 'disruptive' in the WP sense. I cant seem to find a definition here. If im being accused of something, Id like to know what it is. Could you also say wher the policy on disruption is kept and wher the punishments are stated?--Light current 22:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree. --Lumière 01:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Let's not overgeneralize. I agree, as an admin, that we should be able to discuss reasonable changes to the policy here, and with consensus implement them, and that no such discussion should be censored. As this is a long-standing policy, however, the right of anyone to just Be Bold is much more limited.

I do not personally agree with any change that requires our sources to be highly reputable and trusted, because often an irreputable source can still be used as evidence provided that it is properly qualified (for example, "Senator McCarthy's speeches accused over 500 people of being Communists, allegations later shown to be almost entirely false"). The most important thing is that we have sources, and that we do not misrepresent their level of reputability. Deco 03:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you Deco. Im talking about the recent bad changes to this page that now emphasise the truth is completely unimportant as acriterion for inclusion in WP>--Light current 03:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Deco, I also agree with you, but only because of the "any" in "any change that requires our sources to be highly reputable". I do think that we need to further discuss ways to improve the quality of Wikipedia and reputable sources are the primary ingredient to achieve this goal. Of course, we should not always require highly reputable sources. It should depend on the content and its context. --Lumière 06:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Deco, can you explain the context of your last comment. It does not fit with the previous paragraph, so I realize that I do not have the context. Was your comment related to a previous discussion in this talk page? --Lumière 07:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Wheel Warring

Of course! Ordinary users must not interfere in wheel wars or they are lible to get blocked. I have just learned this valuable lesson!--Light current 00:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Regarding troll food

I encourage others not supply anymore of it. Watch the page, revert ill-formed, misguided or bad faith edits, and leave it at that. FeloniousMonk 00:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I liked your last album BTW!--Light current 00:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

"Local interest" articles

Recently, an item was added to the Cheesesteak article. It's under discussion for various reasons, but I want to present it here regarding questions of verifiability in local-interest articles.

Characteristic	Pat's Steaks	Geno's Steaks	Steve's Steaks
Steak	cut up into small, thin pieces; unseasoned	long, uncut, thick pieces; seasoned	long, thin, fatless pieces; unseasoned
Onions	mixed in with steak; sweet taste	underneath meat; spicy taste	above meat and cheese
Cheese Whiz	Kraft brand; on top of steak	generic brand; under steak	generic brand; above steak
Bread	hard and firm	soft, with unique taste	soft yet firm

I had nothing to do with adding this item. On the one hand, I think it adds something to the article (other editors don't necessarily agree). And I think it's quite likely to be accurate. On the other hand, it's unsourced; it's obviously the personal observation of Wikipedia editors. There's no doubt at all in my mind that under the verifiability policy it should go; unsourced, unpublished, original research.

The question I have is this. A lot of "local-interest" articles are largely comprised of this kind of material. They are basically personal contributions by Wikipedia editors. You see this in descriptions of eateries. An interesting example is Nick Tahou Hots, IMHO a good, readable, informative article with many external links. But. a) individual items of fact are not traceable to sources, and in fact the sources don't necessarily confirm the items in the article; b) the sources are all in the nature of blogs, forums, personal websites, and in one case another Wiki.

The same is often true of non-Rambot material in articles about individual towns. I'm personally guilty of contributing some of it myself.

This sort of material is fun, it's interesting, it's even informative, but there's probably no way most of it can be properly sourced. (A lot of it can be, but I think it's unlikely that information on the brand of cheese used by different cheesesteak restaurants, and whether present it on above or below the meat can be found even in Philadelphia newspapers. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong. I'd accept e.g. a campus newspaper as a source, on the assumption that they do have editors who do vet articles...)

Would it be appropriate to have some sort of category of "local-interest" articles for which the policy would establish a different, and lower standard of verifiability?

This is not at all a rhetorical question. I'm personally quite puzzled as to how this should be handled. Apply the current policy, and gradually tighten the noose on hometowncruft? Create variable standards for different kinds of articles (a genuinely slippery slope IMHO)? Or what? Dpbsmith (talk) 15:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this sort of material fails WP:V. I believe wikitravel welcomes content based on personal experiences of contributors, tho. We already in practice have different standards for different articles, but I don't think this should be turned into written policy. I personally think that if the only source for a particular bit of info is a school newspaper, that info is too trivial to be included in an encyclopedia. Friday (talk) 15:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

That content does not belong in WP as it fails WP:V. There are other wiki projects such as Wikicities in which this type of content belongs. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

We should be trying to bring all articles up to standard on references. the fact that we're not there yeat doesn't mean we should soften the standards. If you can't find a reliable published source, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia. -- 68.223.206.135 19:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC) - Argh! Resign while logged in. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 19:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, some people (including many old-time editors, from what I've seen) don't particularly believe in verifiability. Those folks may argue that having this material in the encyclopedia is just fine. Friday (talk) 19:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I know. They just don't understand yet that leaving articles unsourced seriously weakens Wikipedia. After all, Wikipedia is not some giant blog, it's supposed to be an encyclopedia, gathering together what is known about the world (and universe). The best way to insure that we are putting solid information into Wikipedia is to require that it has been previously published in reliable sources. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 20:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

All right, but there are reliable published sources on local subjects which do not exist in English and are very probably not available in the United States, e.g. Roth and Straubhaar, z'Bärg - Wege zum Alpkäse, Amt Frutigen, 2004 (any number of facts and figures about Bernese Alp Cheese and the western Bernese alps where it is produced, also excellent resource for articles on the communities there) ISBN 3-909532-11-X. Not available at Amazon.de - but it's sold in most local bookshops in the Bernese Oberland. Or an older one Zürcher Bürger- und Heimatbuch, 1968, first issue 1938, published by the government of Zurich, some 300 pages about geography, history, economy, military and law as present for citizens attaining their majority, authors are mainly professors , definitely a very reputable source - again, lots of useful facts and figures, statistics, developments all with a nice conservative pre-1968 POV which is, by itself, a historical feature. No way to find it at Amazon.de, and there is no chance whatsoever to find a source with the same data in English. I can take a text from those sources, write it in German and English so anyone can verify the translation, no problem (and give the source, of course). But I am not willing to skip the use of books in my shelf due to their not being readily available to average English-speaking verifiability-hawks. ::All right, but there are reliable published sources on local subjects which do not exist in English and are very probably not available in the United States, e.g. Roth and Straubhaar, 'z'Bärg - Wege zum Alpkäse, Amt Frutigen, 2004 (any number of facts and figures about Bernese Alp Cheese and the western Bernese alps where it is produced, also excellent resource for articles on the communities there) ISBN 3-909532-11-X. Not available at Amazon.de - but it's sold in most local bookshops in the Bernese Oberland. Or an older one Zürcher Bürger- und Heimatbuch, 1968, first issue 1938, published by the government of Zurich, some 300 pages about geography, history, economy, military and law as present for citizens attaining their majority, authors are mainly professors , definitely a very reputable source - again, lots of useful facts and figures, statistics, developments all with a nice conservative pre-1968 POV which is, by itself, a historical feature. No way to find it at Amazon.de, and there is no chance whatsoever to find a source with the same data in English. I can take a text from those sources, write it in German and English so anyone can verify the translation, no problem (and give the source, of course). But I am not willing to skip the use of books in my shelf due to their not being readily available to average English-speaking verifiability-hawks. Irmgard 00:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Again, sorry, but no. This is, after all, the English Wikipedia. The only language that we can be sure a reader or editor of the English Wikipedia understands is English. Sources in other languages cannot be checked by most editors and readers, and are therefore unverifiable to those readers. We'll have to just get along with what is available from reliable sources in English. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 00:22, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• There is no way we can make an unbiased encylopedia if we restrict ourselves to English language sources, to say nothing of what the folks making minority language wikipedias would end up with. WP:V say "English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly." - it certainly does not say that foreign language sources are unacceptable. Kappa 00:26, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I would be very careful about relying on foreign language sources for articles in the English Wikipedia. I personally would want to challenge any article that had only foreign language sources. If there are no sources in English for a topic, then maybe that topic can wait for inclusion. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 00:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

No, this interpretation of verifiability is too narrow. If there is a well researched and sourced article on, say, the Spanish Wikipedia, and it is translated into English relying on the original sources, I think it would be utterly unreasonable for someone to come along and say "I don't speak Spanish, this is unverifiable". Verifiable does not mean that anyone can verify it - it means that someone with reasonable and appropriate expertise can verify it. Enchanter 01:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Some sources are simply not available in English, e.g. most of the opposition to Opus Dei resources are in Spanish or Portuguese, but are sure important for NPOV.

Also, reliable, published and comprehensive English sources on foreign subjects are rather limited: which is, as I've noted in quite some articles, a factor which limits comprehensiveness and also sometimes quality in the English Wikipedia. Compare, e.g. the French to the English article on Édouard Manet (where the English one is not well referenced, as well) or the German and English article on Gelsenkirchen (where the English one probably has also the German article as best resource). It's also seen in the Gelsenkirche talk pages, where, BTW, in the German talk page verifyability plays a much bigger role - sure, the same facts would not be easily verifiable using English sources.

And then, there are differences between verifiability and verifiability. A statement on quantum mechanics could give as source an academic article which is, though in English, in a language Joe Doe does not understand enough to get to the point which has been referenced. Such stuff can only be verified by someone who is at least a hobby-scientiest. Then Wikipedia says that outlandish statements need strong sources, surely correct - but there is also the corollary that not at all outlandish statements do not need such strong sources, and an example for that would be, e.g., undisputed facts regarding local history, geography or biography. You don't have an English source about the description of the blazon of Gelsenkirchen? So what? No English quote regarding the influence of Gustave Courbet on Edouard Manet? (French quote and source given in the French Wikipedia) - do you seriously think omitting the statement will improve the English Wikipedia? Irmgard 13:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Restricting ourselves only to English-language sources would be a very bad thing. Ausir 14:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

IMO, it makes no sense to accept foreign language sources. We are not equiped to check the validity of the interpretation of a wikipedia editor of a source in a foreign language. It is already a challenge to check that a Wikipedia article is faithful to its sources when they are in english. It is almost impossible to check that if we accept sources in all kind of foreign languages. Of course, it is very bad that we cannot use all this information that is not yet available in english, but what can we do? We have to accept it. We are simply not equiped for translation. -Lumière 17:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

There are two opposite tendencies in the Wikipedia community. There are those who advocate that we should not suppress information even if it is hard to check, dubious, etc. There are those who are for high-quality standards that can be implemented within our open structure, and thus are very selective about the kind of content that is acceptable for inclusion. The above is just an example of a debate between these two groups. I am on the side of High-quality standards. This is why I say that we should not accept foreign language sources until we adopt some structure to check their translations. -Lumière 17:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

General remark: Hard to check and dubious are two very different things. An academic thesis on specifics of quarks might be difficult to get at for the average user and it's doubtful if he would understand it if he got it - so that's hard to check, but at the same time the article is peer reviewed and published in a highly valued scientific journal. Even with academic level books as sources, there is not everyone in position to verify them. Take a theology article using as sources Jaroslav Pelikan's "The Christian Tradition" (5 volumes), Thomas C. Oden's Systematic Theology (3 volumes) and N.T. Wright's "The New Testament and the People of God" (3 volumes so far). All in English, and no one will question them as reputable sources, but could you verify the quotes? How many Wikipedians do have these books on their shelf? --- On the other hand, a convincingly written article on "the only exact interpretation of the Revelation" published on a website of an anonymous group "Followers of the Christian prophet", can be found by anyone who knows how to use Google, so it's easy to verify, but its value as reputable reference is close to zero. So by all means be careful on dubious sources, I am as well - but to not accept a source because it is "hard to check" in someones view is one of the surest ways to limit the quality of Wikipedia to average high school level."

Foreign language sources classify surely as "hard to check" for some people. But Wikipedia is a community effort, there's no one who has to (or could) singlehandedly verify all references - and that community includes lots of people who do know foreign languages: have a look at the Category:user languages: in the English Wikipedia there are thousands of users who understand some Spanisch, German, French, Italian, Latin, Japanese, Russian (minimum 1000 users each language), and you also find some who speak Hebrew, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Italian, Hindi, Classical Greek, or Croatian (minimum 100 users each language) and you also find someone for more exotic languages (and that's only those who did make use of the Babel system. Many of those users are already interested in local articles regarding the area of their language and check them for correctness - and sure most of them would readily help out verifying a source in a local area article, which usually does not need any expert knowledge if asked to. You do not need to know a language perfect to check a reference, you do not have to translate it, just check the translation (I can do this in all languages where I rate myself at basic level, not only in those languages where I can write or translate articles. So if you are not able to verify a foreign language reference, there is a good chance someone else is - the only problem would be a constructed problem of a source in a language which only three users know and all of them are having the same pronounced bias, but that's sure not the model case for the general rule. I plead for inclusion of foreign language references to enhance the quality of Wikipedia - they can be checked by this community. Ok, by all means qualify "foreign language sources" as "sources in languages which are known to at least 100 wikipedians per Category:user languages", this will probably cover 99% of the sources in question. --Irmgard 16:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Irmgard, I acknowledge that "dubious" and "hard to check" are two different things. Your clarification on this issue is very important. It is not understood enough in the Wikipedia community, and this is due to a lack of appreciation of the important role that expert editors must play within Wikipedia. Actually, I have discussed that before with others (see Wikipedia talk:No_original_research#More_appreciative_of_the_role_of_experts). The problem is that Wikipedia has no structure to distinguish an expert editor from a non expert editor. So, unless we adopt a precise structure to identify some kind of expertise, we cannot officially use this kind of expertise. This includes translation. That is all what I am saying. -Lumière 17:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Lumière, instead of experts Wikipedia uses crosschecks by other Wikipedians who know more or less about the subject, without verifying their exact status. If this works for medicine, physics, and astronomy articles (Ok, we agree, in some cases a verification can only be done by an expert or at least someone who has access to a university library - but that's somewhat self-monitoring: could you, e.g. verify the Fermi paradox article? I couldn't.) , why should it not work for foreign sources?T here are Wikipedians who know enough about mathematics or programming languages to check the articles and verify sources, and there are Wikipedians who know Portuguese or even Armenian to check articles and verify sources. There are a lot more people who can verify a translation than who can translate (I can translate into English, German and on some subjects into French, and sure I can verify such translations - but I also can verify a translation into English from Italian, Spanisch, Latin or Old Greek and have often done so (in and out of Wikipedia) where I doubt if the translation is a translation or an rather an interpretation of the original.

And, again, leaving out everything which is not published in English will make a poor encyclopedia - the US is top notch on science, so there you can reasonably argue " if it is not published in English, it's not necessary". But that's not as true e.g. for general history or history of arts, and for sure not true for any non-English literature, non-English places, non-English customs, laws, etc.

And in some cases, foreign sources are indispensible: Imagine an article on a French law without having as sources that French law aand how the French reason about it (no joke, I came upon such an article where almost every statement an English quote - but all the sources quoted either misunderstood the issue or were biased or both, and the article was anything but NPOV until a Wikipedia sysop of French nationality took over and provided the French view (with French sources, but I verified them). Irmgard 18:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we can do the same for translation as we do for other kind of expertises. You are right. My sentences were "It is already a challenge to check that a Wikipedia article is faithful to its sources when they are in english. It is almost impossible to check that if we accept sources in all kind of foreign languages." In other words, I was just trying to remove an extra level of difficulty, which I felt was not small at all. So, we agree on the principles. We just disagree about where exactly we should draw the line.

To conclude with an agreement, I realize that it is important to distinguish between "hard to check" and "dubious". If we take this angle, we are both working together because I think that too often some editors reject contributions of other editors because it requires "too much" of an understanding of the sources to see that these contributions are actually well supported by these sources. The problem is that sometimes the "too much" is not that much. It just that it is an easy way that opponents can use to filter some contributions for inclusion. The case of a language barrier is one example, but not the most frequent examples in my opinion. -Lumière 19:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with you on that - rejecting contributions as unsourced because the rejector does not understand the source (or has not really read it) is not what is intended by the verifiability policy. I even balk a bit a the sentence "so editors should cite reliable sources so that their edits may be verified by readers and other editors" and would like to qualify it by "readers and other editors who know the subject", but that's again getting close to the "expert/no expert" subject. --Irmgard 20:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Are we splitting hairs here? The policy is very clear on this subject. The burden is on the editor adding material. Provice verifiable material from reputable sources. Period. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you Jossi. The burden to provide sources that are reputable is on the editor adding the new material. All editors must agree that the sources are reputable: Wikipedia works with consensus. The problem that we consider is how to check that the material added is indeed supported by these sources. We can see two steps here: first we see that the sources are reputable and second we see that the material added is well supported by these sources. What is your opinion about the second step? Is the burden for this second step also on the editor adding the material? Note that in any case, at the end all editors must agree that the new material is well supported by the sources: Wikipedia works with consensus. -Lumière 21:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Editors apply policy to the best of their ability. Let's not get into too much instrucntion-creep. We have done consireably well with this policy so far. Let it be. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure! The first sentence is perfectly reasonable. Now, to who do you adress the next two sentences. To me? To me and Irmgard? Perhaps you adress these two sentences to every one that works on the policy and try to better explain it with tutorials, with additional clarifications, simplifications, etc. Is this a personal issue? -Lumière 21:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

So, I maintain that the writing of the policy should provide a better understanding of what is intended by the Verifiability policy when it says that new material must be supported by reputable sources. This is related to the role of expert editors in Wikipedia. The difficulty with foreign language sources is just one case. -Lumière 21:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

As a general response to the question of using foreign language sources as references in articles, I'll quote from Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Sources in languages other than English

Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:

* Where sources are directly quoted, published translations are generally preferred over editors performing their own translations directly.

* Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

This only provides rules for quotes. Is that means that we can only quote a foreign language source? In many WP article, it is impossible to faitfully represent the sources just using quotes. We have to be realistic, no original research does not mean that we can only quote the sources. In fact, it is easy to misrepresent an article by quoting some specific parts of the sources and not others. So, interpreting the no original research as if it said that we can only quote the sources is pointless. So, the issue of foreign language sources is still not clear. In general it is still not clear how to determine if a given content is supported by given sources. At the least, we should be clear that it does not mean that the content is found word for word in the sources. Also, it should be explained that it is fine that only those who can understand the sources can determine if the content is well supported by these sources. -Lumière 05:44, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Provisional Sources

WikiPedia strives to use only published sources, but in many cases where documented sources exist, publishing them may not be feasible due to biases in the publishing industry. The most brilliant prose on a topic may not find a publisher because they are just not interested in the subject, the subject is too short, the subject isn't sexy enough, a publisher doesn't exist for that topic, it's not "important" enough, everyone's too busy to bother with it, etc., all of which may prevent good documented information from being used by WikiPedia editors as verified sources. For cases where verified, documented sources exist but are unpublished and publishable if publishers would let it be, maybe we can establish a "Provisional Source" classification and a Source Commons, so that articles that would stand if the legitimate sources did get published would not be hampered. "Provisional Sources" could be classified as "verified, documented sources that would be published, provided a publisher were available". Provisional Sources can be marked as such. Articles using Provisional Sources can state something like, "This article or section contains information that has been verified but not published. Please help by replacing unpublished sources with published sources where possible." What qualifies as a verified, documented source can be hashed out here, but I think it can include third party corroboration of an article's facts, through affidavits, email requests for confirmation, interviews, and other factfinding methods used by publishers. This would take the sources beyond Original Research by using only third party corroboration and not creating one's own sources. This would be particularly helpful for articles on social phenomena where few if any published sources are available due to publisher bias, but can be verified through third party corroboration, such as local interest, or special interest groups and fandoms outside the mainstream. (Publishers are especially biased about the latter, interested only in yellow-journalistic reporting if they're interested at all, which frustates any well-sourced articles.) Provisional Sources would satisfy the condition of verifiablity, while stressing that published sources are prefered, and quell arguments about well-known facts that have no published sources but can be corroborated. --Coyoty 20:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, no. There are usually very good reasons why unpublished manuscripts are unpublished. The policy say reliable published sources. That gives us something to point to when an item in an article is questioned. If the source is not one that is generally available to other editors (i.e., in libraries, at bookstores, or on the Internet), it can't be verified by other editors and readers. Also, 'verifiable' does not mean that some person has verified the information before it's put into Wikipedia, it means that anyone else can go to the cited source to verify that the source supports what has been put into the article. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 20:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Exactly right, Dalbury. Coyoty, you're using another meaning of "verify," and what you're describing we call original research. Wikipedia has no established fact-checking or research process in the way newspapers or publishing houses do, which is why we rely on material already published by reliable sources. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. Just think of the massive can of worms we will be opening if allowing these "provisional" sources. Material that is good, will be sooner or later, published. Let's not forget to look at WP as a work in progress! ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Radio interview

Some editors are using transcripts of radio interviews and labelling these "reputable published sources". I would argue for a distinction between a published source in which fact checking and editorial review processes are in place, and such interviews in which the person interviewed, can very much say whatever he/she wants. We can assert the verifiability of the interview taking place, but we could not assert the reputability of the source, just because it was in a media outlet. Any comments? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, I don't know if you care about my opinion, but I totally agree with you that we should distinguish between something that is merely brought to the public attention (even in a way that can be checked later) and something that was published in a reputable source. As your comment suggests, the term "verifiability" was not well chosen at all. Most people interpret it as if it means that we can verify that the author is really the author and that the text (or the video, etc.) was not modified by others. Of course, they did not read the policy to have such an interpretation, but still there are plenty of editors that do have this interpretation. In fact, the policy even goes further in the opposite direction and mentions that what is a reputable source depends on the type of content. For example, for scientific content, peer-reviewed journals are recommanded. Also, the policy refers to guidelines which strongly suggest that we check the reputability of the publishers (to make sure that they only publish accurate material). -Lumière 17:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I would say that if the transcript of the interview is available from a reputable source, then it can be used as a source for what the interviewee said. We do have to be careful that the transcript is trustworthy. We do not want to be putting words in somene's mouth that we cannot prove can from a reputable source. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 21:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

You mean "came from" not "can from", right? Lumière 01:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

In general, interviews should only be used as a source for the interviewees opinions, because, as User:Jossi points out there is no vetting of their contents. But I fail to see the difference between a print interview and a broadcast interview, other matters aside. If an interview is "published" by posting the contents to a reliable source, such as a radio station website, then I'd be inclined to give it credence. -Will Beback 21:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed.--Sean Black ^(talk) 21:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why it is any good even for the interviewees opinion. Perhaps you meant "interviewees opinion about himself", because then indeed the interview can be used if it self-published by the interviewee, but only in an article about the interviewee. -Lumière 01:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Imagine George W. Bush gives an interview to "60 Minutes" and says that Vladmir Putin lied about the Russian nuclear forces. Of course we wouldn't use that as a source for Putin being a liar, but we should be able to use that in articles on Putin or the nuclear forces as a source for a notable opinion on those topics, IMO, not simply in the article on Bush himself. -Will Beback 02:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

If an interview in a TV program can be considered as a reputable source for some kind of content, tell me what kind of content? As pointed out before, the problem is that no fact checking and editorial review processes are in place. What kind of content should not have this form of quality control? I disagree that we can use an interview as a source to include Bush's opinion about Putin in an article on Putin. I know, it seems like a strong suppression of information, but this rule is necessary to guarantee that only fair and accurate stories appear in Wikipedia. Say if another important man says something bad about the pope in an interview, can we include it in an article about the pope? I don't personally care that much about the pope, but if we want to avoid a bad impression we better be sure that we only include content that was carefully filtered for unfair or innacurate stories. -Lumière 02:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

At this point I think the discussion has strayed from the question regarding this policy. I'd say the point above concerns Wikipedia:reliable sources. A blanket ban on using interviews in anything other than the interviewees' biographies is indeed harsh and unnecessary, IMO, but it does not sound like the issue is whether the interivew is verifiable. -Will Beback 22:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry about my opinion. Just read the policy again and ask yourself if it provides rules to determine what is a valid source. Put some attention to the section WP:V#Sources. Whether or not it is my opinion doesn't reall matter. -Lumière 22:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The question is: how can you give "credence" to an interview, in which the interviewee can say whatever he/she wants. As Dalbury says, given WP:V, we can only assert that the intervieee said A, B and C. Period. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

That's what I mean by credence: that we believe that the interview correctly reflects what was said by the interviewee. Since print interviews are sometimes transcribed incorrectly, radio/TV interviews may be more credible than print interviews. Certainly whether the interviewee is correct or not is a problem no matter what format the interview appears in. -Will Beback 01:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, that's an issue with any personal account, like an autobiography or essay.--Sean Black ^(talk) 01:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I was just asking about making a distinction between what we consider a reputable source, and an interview. A reputable source is described in WP:RS as being reliable because Publications with teams of fact-checkers, reporters, editors, lawyers, and managers — like the New York Times or The Times of London — are likely to be reliable, and are regarded as reputable sources for the purposes of Wikipedia. An interview's content does not have that imprimatur. The interviewee can say A, B and C, but we cannot assert that A, B and C is reliable information. But if the Times of London says A, B, and C, we can assert that as reliable information. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. It is policy. -Lumière 02:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

An interview would be used to source opinion, and per WP:RS, An opinion is a view that someone holds, the content of which may or may not be verifiable. However, that a certain person or group holds a certain opinion is a fact, and it may be included in Wikipedia if it can be verified; that is, if you can cite a good source showing that the person or group holds the opinion. As long as the interview is archived in some form, either in a media file "as broadcast" hosted by a reliable source, or transcribed with the transcription agreed, again hosted or printed by a reliable source, or a quotation has been run by a reliable source, there is no concern. An interview can also be used to source facts the interviewee may give regarding themselves, the interviewee being primary source and the interview itself being the secondary source. You are correct that we cannot use an interview to assert A B and C where they are unrelated to the interviewee: if George Bush claimed there was an alien invasion due tomorrow we could not assert an alien invasion was imminent; we could however, assert George Bush stated on the 12th February that "an alien invasion is due tomorrow". But again, only if the interview was available for verification. I am unclear as to how possible it is to gain access to tapes or transcripts of radio and television transmissions for verification purposes from the broadcasters - that would be a flaw in the verifiability chain that would have to be examined. Hiding talk 22:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You are saying that the transformation of an opinion into a fact, as explained in the NPOV policy and as you reexplain above, together with a weak notion of verifiability without a reputable source, is sufficient to transform anything that is not acceptable for inclusion into something that is acceptable for inclusion. For example, a crackpot theory about the universe is not acceptable in a respectable WP article on this topic, but if you transform it into the fact that Joe proposed this crackpot theory and this is sourced in some interview, it is OK to include that crackpot theory into this WP article. This is in conflict with the WP verifiability requirement that says that the fact that Joe proposed this crackpot theory must be supported in a reputable source before it is acceptable for inclusion. You are in conflict with an essential part of the Wikipedia policy. --Lumière 02:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

If the policy is like Hiding describes it, there are parts of the formulation of the policy that are completely misleading because they say the opposite. For example, there is the part of the policy that says that the role of a reputable publisher is to provide fact checking, some form of peer-review, etc. and also the part that says that what is a reputable source depends on what is being sourced. Somehow it is like Hiding did not read the same policy than me. Should we delete these parts? I think we should not delete these parts because they are important, but it is more important for me that we all agree on a policy. If there is a consensus that they are useless, let us delete these parts. -Lumière 05:22, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

• Lumière, I am totally unclear as to how both your statements above in any shape or form relate to my statement. You seem to have misunderstood me somemwhere, since everything you state my opinions to say is not even a misrepresentation; there is no resemblance between my words and your reading of them. If you wish to discuss the issue with me further, please use my own words rather than your understanding of them. Thanks. Hiding talk 18:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

If you say that I misunderstood you, I say great! I say it is great because I was in total disagreement with what I understood, and I would prefer to be in agreement. What may have confused me is that you never referred to the concept of reputable source, which is basic to the verifiability policy. The part that I like to hear about the verifiability policy is that a reputable source must provide some kind of review process to guarantee fairness and accuracy. -Lumière 18:29, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I may miss something, but is the gist of this discussion that we consider sources only verifiable if they still can be obtained from the original publisher? Because if they are not available from the original publisher anymore then who knows what may have been done with the radio interview or the magazine or the article by somebody for propaganda purposes. Does this mean that we cannot use newspapers as a source older than, say 30 years? Does this mean that articles that were once verifiable become unverifiable after a few years? Do we also have to check whether books are not sold out? Do we have to make a regular check for this? I bought the last copy of a certain academic book and used it for Wikipedia. Is this unallowed? Please note that the existence of this particular radio interview and certain assertions voiced in them are undisputed. Audio files of a radio interview that seems authentic and are claimed by various contributors of Wikipedia to be a copy of the original radio interview are available on the internet, so it is possible to check whether the audio file corresponds with transcript. Andries 00:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The gist of the discussion is making a distinction between the ability to verify that an interview took place, and the ability to verify the assertions made in an interview. Being able to verify that an interview took place, and being able to verify that the transcription of the interview is correct, does not give this interview the imprimatur of "reputable/reliable source". A reputable source is described in WP:RS as being reliable because "Publications with teams of fact-checkers, reporters, editors, lawyers, and managers — like the New York Times or The Times of London — are likely to be reliable, and are regarded as reputable sources for the purposes of Wikipedia". That is clearly not the case with an interview, in which the interviewee can say pretty much whatever he/she wants. Clear now? A ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Jossi! Very clear! -Lumière 00:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, I think you're slightly confused here. Yes an interviewee can say pretty much what they want in an interview. That doesn't negate it as a reliable source; it merely entails us to remember that what we are sourcing is generally opinion. However, were George Bush, for example, to announce in an interview that he is resigning as President, that is a fact, is sourcable and is verifiable. Note what needs to be verified with interviews is that the words were actually said, and by the person whom they are presented as being spoken by. Many broadcasters are reputable sources, consider for example the BBC. Hiding talk 09:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think Jossi is confused. What might be confusing is the term "reliable" instead of "reputable". Again, the main points of the policy are stated in terms of "reputable sources", not in terms of "verifiable sources" (see WP:V#The policy). So, I assume you meant "reputable source" when you wrote "verifiable source". The policy is clear that a "reputable source" is a source from a publisher that provides fact checking, etc., which is obviously more than only checking the authenticity of the authors and protecting the material against tampering to make sure that the attribution is correct. -Lumière 18:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

No, you're confused too. You have missed the part where I ask you to consider the BBC as a reliable or reputable source. However, since you state that what we're arguing about now though, is not verifiability but reliable sources. Are an interviewees own words opinion? Yes. Therefore, per WP:RS, If there is text, audio, or video available of someone expressing the opinion directly, it is preferable to include or transcribe an excerpt. Hiding talk 21:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

question about well known (by some) facts

Just to say from the outset, I agree that verifiability is an issue of the utmost importance to make Wikipedia a credible source. I have two specific questions about how it should be applied:

1. If a "top-level" article refers to another "lower-level" article in a section, through, say the Main template, and that article is thoroughly referenced, does the top-level article need to repeat the referencing of the lower level article? Can Wikipedia draw on Wikipedia as a source, in this limited circumstance? This is not an issue of verifiability, if the lower-level article is carefully referenced.
2. Academic referencing has two main purposes. The first is to reference statements the reader may not have heard, so he knows where to look for more information. The second is to properly attribute the work of others. Therefore, it is usually not necessary to attribute very widely known information. Can the same be said for Wikipedia?

This has come up recently. I've mentioned it on Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates where it occured to me with respect to a comment on Talk:Big bang. Here is a scenario I've been thinking about. Hypothetically, if Big Bang were up on FAC (in reality, it's already featured) and someone mentioned the statement

Huge advances in Big Bang cosmology were made in the late 1990s and the early 21st century as a result of major advances in telescope technology in combination with large amounts of satellite data such as that from COBE, the Hubble Space Telescope and WMAP

is unverified, the nominator would probably Google some relevant words. It would be trivial to find a reference, say to CNN.com. It would accordingly be added, an oppose vote would change to support and everybody would be happy. But does adding random references really benefit Wikipedia? The statement about "huge advances" is known by virtually every physicist and astronomer, and could be verified by any number of sources:

• The popular press
• An article in Physics Today, Science or Nature
• Citing the original papers (HST, COBE, WMAP...)
• Textbooks or any recent history book
• Something more clever, like an of the number of academic papers mentioning cosmology over time

But the fact is that it is well known and accepted, and hopefully the reader that continues on and reads the whole article will come to accept this fact. From the standpoint of verifiability, it doesn't seem to matter which is used, but from the standpoint of the reader who actually looks at the footnotes, it probably does matter. I had always thought that statements that were common knowledge, at least amongst a certain (large-ish set, like physicists, Italians or squash players) don't really need a reference (at least, an in-line one). It is already becoming somewhat confusing for editors not familiar to Wikipedia to edit highly-referenced articles, because of the profusion of Wiki markup, and the necessity of referencing every sentence seems absurd. But what is the rule of thumb to decide what needs a reference? –Joke 01:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

It's simple, if someone challenges the statement and no supporting reference is supplied, the statement can be removed. This has nothing to do with whether or not something is 'well-known'. If something is indeed 'well-known', it will be easy for someone to provide an appropriate reference. It's even better if someone provides the reference up front. It can be embarassing if you put in something you think is 'well-known', have someone challenge it, and not be able to find an appropriate reference. I've had the experience of challenging something because it did not agree with the source I was consulting, have another editor supply their source, and then discover that the source they used does not agree with the source I have. In that case, we have to cite both sources and note the disagreement. I've also had the experience of wanting to add information about an important public event I personally witnessed, and not be able to find any reference source to support what I remember. -- Dalbury^(Talk) 02:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. There are no "discounts" as it pertains to Verifiability. What may be "well known" and obvious to someone, may be totally unknown to another. By providing a reference, we are safe and able to deter a possible challenge down the line. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok great. So we then need to reference the following statements:

• "George W. Bush is president of the United States of America."
• "Germany and France share a border."
• "The colors of the American flag are red, white and blue."

Surely the line can be drawn somewhere and not every sentence needs a footnote. And please address my first, simple question (regarding "top-level" and "lower-level" articles) also. –Joke 02:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I must agree with Joke, it seems to me that there is a line to be drawn with respect to refs. Some statements (like the ones he mentioned) clearly do not need references. However, I disagree with him about where this line ought to be drawn - I think, for example, that the statement

Huge advances in Big Bang cosmology were made in the late 1990s and the early 21st century as a result of major advances in telescope technology in combination with large amounts of satellite data such as that from COBE, the Hubble Space Telescope and WMAP

does need a ref. That said, reasonable ppl disagree here as it is a grey area. Debate on the issue is needed. Specifically, I think we need to discuss 1 (top level vs. lower level articles needing refs). Mikker ^... 03:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Again, if someone challenges something in an article, supply a reference. There may well be readers of Wikipedia that do not know that George W. Bush is president of the United States, and I'b willing to be that there are Americans that do not know that France and Germany share a border. As for citing other Wikipedia articles as references, I have read in one of the policies or guidelines a stricture not to do it, but I can't find it now. One problem is that the other article may not be well referenced, or may deleted, merged, or otherwise made unsuitable as a referenc at some point in the future. Even if the article is well referenced, it is easy to bring the relevant references into the current article, and it is a courtesy to the reader to not make them go to another article to see the references. - Dalbury^(Talk) 03:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

So you would be ok with:

George Walker Bush (born July 6, 1946)<ref here> is the 43rd and current President of the United States.<ref here> Prior to his political career, he was a businessman in the oil industry<ref here> and served as the managing general partner of the Texas Rangers baseball team.<ref here>

Bush, a member of the Republican Party,<ref here> was elected 46th Governor of Texas in 1994<ref here> and was re-elected in 1998.<ref here> From there, he moved on to win the nomination of the Republican Party for the 2000 presidential race<ref here> and ultimately defeated Democratic Vice President Al Gore in a particularly close and controversial [1] general election. In 2004, Bush was elected to a second term, defeating Democratic Senator John Kerry.<ref here> This term will expire January 20, 2009.<ref here>

Bush's presidency has been defined by the terrorist September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States,<ref here> and his administration's response to the attacks. In the aftermath the U.S. and a multinational force took military action in Iraq, overthrowing and capturing Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.<ref here> The war proved controversial both in the United States and internationally.<ref here> In response to the September 11th attacks, Bush created the Department of Homeland Security and increased the powers of law enforcement agencies with the passage of the USA PATRIOT Act.<ref here>

? Mikker ^... 03:34, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

It depends. Quoting from Wikipedia:Citing sources#How to cite sources:

Sometimes — for example, when the article treats an uncontroversial or simple topic, and draws on a few, widely accepted general sources — it is sufficient to provide a "References" section at the end of the article, containing an alphabetized list of general references and authoritative overviews of a subject (such as textbooks and review articles). In other cases this is not enough, and in addition you should use in-line citations such as the Harvard references or footnotes described below.

I generally just use a References section, and only use in-line notes when it seems necessary to me. Often I cite two or three sources for the same fact, which is kind of hard to handle in-line. If I have multiple sources, then what I write is a blend of those sources, and in-line citing would be quite complicated. So a citation of a single comprehensive article or book about Bush could be cited in the References section. It is only when challenged about individual statements that a more